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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread - Page 1330

post #19936 of 27330
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

Ya, I mean, 'roid boy Hedo? Come on. Lots of guys would have been willing to join this team, but they've failed on that front. Now Austin Rivers? This team was looking fairly stacked a few years ago. I didn't watch enough to judge their mix the last few seasons, but their bench has dwindled. Doc to blame?
Overpaying Jordan would be a mistake. He's worth 9m or so, but no more. That's 2x the average player salary. You can't pay a guy more that can't play crunch time.
i've been watching them pretty regularly for the last three years. the big difference in the bench last year and this was losing darren collison, who did a great job keeping the offense moving on the second team. but they couldn't pay him what he could get elsewhere. they had hopes farmar would fill in, but that didn't work out. i think rivers could turn out to be just fine. And i really disagree about Jordan, he's as dominating a defensive post as i can remember -- and i watched almost every game of the shaq-era lakers.
post #19937 of 27330
Quote:
Originally Posted by foodguy View Post

i've been watching them pretty regularly for the last three years. the big difference in the bench last year and this was losing darren collison, who did a great job keeping the offense moving on the second team. but they couldn't pay him what he could get elsewhere. they had hopes farmar would fill in, but that didn't work out. i think rivers could turn out to be just fine. And i really disagree about Jordan, he's as dominating a defensive post as i can remember -- and i watched almost every game of the shaq-era lakers.

He puts up great fantasy stats, but his defense is based on his ability to leap. He steals rebounds and gets blocks because of it. He gives up baskets from failures in team defense, though, and he makes up for many of those mistakes thru being more athletic, but when he starts to lose a step, he's going to drop off a cliff. Lastly, he can't create his own shot. Shaq could.

Big men lose a step pretty early, so for me, paying him max money means an albatross later in his contract.
post #19938 of 27330
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

He puts up great fantasy stats, but his defense is based on his ability to leap. He steals rebounds and gets blocks because of it. He gives up baskets from failures in team defense, though, and he makes up for many of those mistakes thru being more athletic, but when he starts to lose a step, he's going to drop off a cliff. Lastly, he can't create his own shot. Shaq could.

Big men lose a step pretty early, so for me, paying him max money means an albatross later in his contract.
not risking getting in a "max money" argument with idfnl smile.gif but i'll just say that this is contrary to my observations. I think he's a terrific team defender; his basket defense allows the rest of the team to push on defense knowing that if they get beaten jordan is there to block/deflect/alter anything that goes up in the paint. As for big men losing a step ... hmmm. athletes always decline as they age, but because big men are called on to be so much less mobile than 1-3, I find this a curious argument. Plus, the dude's 26. He's got a solid 4 years ahead of him d.v. before the wheels start coming off.
just out of curiousity (and because i'm waiting for a story to be filed), I ran down a list of prominent centers -- actually Jordan is younger than any of them but demarcus cousins. horford and hibbert are 28, marc gasol and dwight howard are 29, bogut is 30, pau is 34 and duncan is 38.
post #19939 of 27330
Zach Lavine will own the dunk contest. With all due respect to Giannis, it won't be close
post #19940 of 27330
Thread Starter 
He is 26 years old and not even in his prime yet, you aren't going to sign him to a 15 year contract. He has been one of the most resilient players in the league, i think he hold the current record for most game splayed consecutively. Dude rarely misses any games.

And you are clueless if you really think his defense is based on his ability to leap. Like dude can't switch up and prevent players to simply drive around him?

You think his rebounds are based on his ability to simply jump? Griffin has hops but dude isn't getting rebound like Jordan. Love can barely jump and dude could easily average double digits in rebounds. Rebound is about positioning and ability, it takes skills and not just about how high you leap or how tall you are. Look at tall ass Hibbert or Lopez, weak rebounders despite their height and athleticism.

And to blame him for the points that score on collapsed defense? More often than not he makes up for failed team defense in the paint by helping out and if not, his presence alone changes shots in the paint.

The team is also built so that he doesn't need to create his own shots, his main job on offense are put backs or catching lobs and dunking drop-off passes and getting the other teams center on foul trouble.


The Clippers would not be where they are at today (or the past few years) without Jordan, that is fact.

And at the logic that you can't pay him more than double the average NBA players salary? lol8[1].gif The team core defense tentpole. crackup[1].gif

And can't play in crunch time? I guess you haven't been watching any Clippers game because Doc has stuck with him despite the hack-a-Jordans strategy and won. Doc has been doing this the post 2-3 years now too so it isn't even like it's something new. Just clueless as usual.



Then again you're the dude who could predict the future and claims you wouldn't sign all these players for big money after the fact. So obviously you know something about the NBA future that we don't. facepalm.gif
post #19941 of 27330
Yeah, I am not DJ's biggest fan (he will always be known as a glorified poster dunk guy to me), but dude has steadily improved these last 2 years. He would be snatched up in a second in the open market and deservedly so.
post #19942 of 27330
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post


You think his rebounds are based on his ability to simply jump? Griffin has hops but dude isn't getting rebound like Jordan. Love can barely jump and dude could easily average double digits in rebounds. Rebound is about positioning and ability, it takes skills and not just about how high you leap or how tall you are. Look at tall ass Hibbert or Lopez, weak rebounders despite their height and athleticism.




post #19943 of 27330
Quote:
Originally Posted by foodguy View Post

not risking getting in a "max money" argument with idfnl smile.gif but i'll just say that this is contrary to my observations. I think he's a terrific team defender; his basket defense allows the rest of the team to push on defense knowing that if they get beaten jordan is there to block/deflect/alter anything that goes up in the paint. As for big men losing a step ... hmmm. athletes always decline as they age, but because big men are called on to be so much less mobile than 1-3, I find this a curious argument. Plus, the dude's 26. He's got a solid 4 years ahead of him d.v. before the wheels start coming off.
just out of curiousity (and because i'm waiting for a story to be filed), I ran down a list of prominent centers -- actually Jordan is younger than any of them but demarcus cousins. horford and hibbert are 28, marc gasol and dwight howard are 29, bogut is 30, pau is 34 and duncan is 38.


Right... basket defense. The stuff you talk about is what he's good at, I agree, but I've seen him get beaten regularly on pick and roll, as well as overcommitments to moves to the rim turning into an easy pass and dunk. LAC were 7th in defensive efficiency last season, and are 15th so far this season. That's a significant drop with the basic core lineup. I guess what I'm saying is that he's a great athlete but he's not the smartest player I've seen in an NBA uniform. As he ages, the smarter guys manage to transition their careers. Perhaps it could happen with him, but I wouldn't bank on it.

To the mobility argument, the modern big has to be able to defend outside the paint too. He's mobile now, and may be in 5 years, but that doesn't mean you command max. Oh, and Brooke Lopez is 26... how's that working for BKN?

Of all the centers you mentioned, they all have well refined, polished offensive chops, and can shoot FTs save for Howard. For my GM $, I'd demand a complete game on both sides of the floor. You bring me half of that, you don't get a max contract. I'm not necessarily saying anyone needs to agree with me, but if I was managing the team, I'd let him go if I had to give him a max deal.

Also, the only guy on that list that deserves a max deal is Cousins and maybe Marc on a sliding scale. Definitely not DJ.
post #19944 of 27330
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post



Also, the only guy on that list that deserves a max deal is Cousins and maybe Marc on a sliding scale.


Marc Gasol doesn't deserve max deal?


post #19945 of 27330
Thread Starter 
Hope the Bulls v Dubs game tonight's good.
post #19946 of 27330
The clips perform as a team much better on defense with Deandre on the floor - they give up 1.004 points per possession with him, 1.21 without him. They rebound better with him (50.7% vs 44.7%) as well. Having him in there hurts offense a bit (Clips score 1.13 with him, 1.18 without him), but the difference in defense is staggering. I should note that this analysis doesn't take into account player rotation, etc. it's just the difference between Clippers with Deandre on the floor and without him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

Hope the Bulls v Dubs game tonight's good.

Me too! I know more close games means more losses, but want to see what the Warriors are made of when they have to function in crunch time. Steph and Klay rarely play more than 35 minutes in a game and rarely more than half the fourth quarter, which is great to keep them fresh but not to give them crunch time reps.
post #19947 of 27330
Thread Starter 
Also doesn't help that their bench is atrocious on both end, most nights the starters leave the floor with the lead and the bench loses it. I don't know where to look it up but I'd be curious to see the number difference between the starters and bench?
post #19948 of 27330
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

Right... basket defense. The stuff you talk about is what he's good at, I agree, but I've seen him get beaten regularly on pick and roll, as well as overcommitments to moves to the rim turning into an easy pass and dunk. LAC were 7th in defensive efficiency last season, and are 15th so far this season. That's a significant drop with the basic core lineup. I guess what I'm saying is that he's a great athlete but he's not the smartest player I've seen in an NBA uniform. As he ages, the smarter guys manage to transition their careers. Perhaps it could happen with him, but I wouldn't bank on it.

To the mobility argument, the modern big has to be able to defend outside the paint too. He's mobile now, and may be in 5 years, but that doesn't mean you command max. Oh, and Brooke Lopez is 26... how's that working for BKN?

Of all the centers you mentioned, they all have well refined, polished offensive chops, and can shoot FTs save for Howard. For my GM $, I'd demand a complete game on both sides of the floor. You bring me half of that, you don't get a max contract. I'm not necessarily saying anyone needs to agree with me, but if I was managing the team, I'd let him go if I had to give him a max deal.

Also, the only guy on that list that deserves a max deal is Cousins and maybe Marc on a sliding scale. Definitely not DJ.

Saying that he fails the eye test in pick and roll defense means nothing. Also you don't get to determine max value (God help us) the market does and its pretty dam sure that deandre will get a max offer from some other team if clippers won't bite. Who are they going to replace him with?

Also how the hell you put clippers drop in defensive rankings solely on DJ? Makes zero sense.

Your "needs to bring both halfs of the game or no max contract" also makes zero sense. If a player is so good his team scores opponents by fifty more points a game when he's on court but his team allows 20 more points are you still not going to give him max? That's an incredible 30 point differential. Who cares if his defense is terrible. Or the converse if a player holds the other team to zero points a game are you not giving him max no matter how bad his offense is?
post #19949 of 27330
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

Also doesn't help that their bench is atrocious on both end, most nights the starters leave the floor with the lead and the bench loses it. I don't know where to look it up but I'd be curious to see the number difference between the starters and bench?

Check out nbawowy.com. With the starting 5 on the court, they beat opponents 1.156 to 0.971 per possession. When CP3, Griffin and Deandre sit at the same time, they score more (1.375) but give up way more (1.4). Seems like the big problem with the bench is defense. Well and how painful they are to watch. I haven't seen the clippers play much this year but the bench is hard to watch, reminds me of the Warriors bench last year.
post #19950 of 27330
you guys better get your laughs in now b4 idfnl gets headhunted for a GM job and puts together the next multiple title-winning dynasty w/ 12 players making five million dollars each
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