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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread - Page 1288

post #19306 of 27204
Thread Starter 
With the Clips, they could actually put him in place of Barnes in the starting 5 since he can pretty much play a 3 or a 4 or even a 5 against smaller centers. Even though the Clips are desperate for bench scoring, Barnes is still better than Bullock or Hedo on both ends of the court and it also preserves him for some playoff time. Doc can also rotate his line-up better, start Smoove at 3 then sit him earlier (within 5 minutes) and then bring him back in with the subs at the beginning of the second and that provides a much needed post offense and still be a defensive asset with the second stringers. He also do not need to chuck up 3s because the Clips have enough scoring power outside, they could use his presence on the inside especially with Griffin out and Hawes being out.

I think it is a good fit for him since he is pretty versatile with the position.
post #19307 of 27204
oh shit look how far ross jumped out from:
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

so basically josh smith is going to make like an extra $2 million because he's so fucking bad but not so bad nobody wants him

gg

yup! another instance of why you don't give a great coach gm responsibilities (flip, isaiah, doc, now stan the man). leave that to gods like pop and belichick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

With the Clips, they could actually put him in place of Barnes in the starting 5 since he can pretty much play a 3 or a 4 or even a 5 against smaller centers. Even though the Clips are desperate for bench scoring, Barnes is still better than Bullock or Hedo on both ends of the court and it also preserves him for some playoff time. Doc can also rotate his line-up better, start Smoove at 3 then sit him earlier (within 5 minutes) and then bring him back in with the subs at the beginning of the second and that provides a much needed post offense and still be a defensive asset with the second stringers. He also do not need to chuck up 3s because the Clips have enough scoring power outside, they could use his presence on the inside especially with Griffin out and Hawes being out.

I think it is a good fit for him since he is pretty versatile with the position.
bruh have you not heard about him playing the 3 in detroit...
it did not go well.
they cut the guy.

good luck playing offense w/ jordan's and josh smith's men both totally ignoring them to double paul and griffin in the post. 100% unworkable.
post #19308 of 27204
Smoove has never NEEDED to chuck up 3's. He's just too hard headed to stop. Yes, this is somewhat exacerbated by Detroit playing him with Drummond and Monroe, but it was the same way in Atlanta. It was so bad it became a meme amongst the media covering the Hawks, and I think his hard headedness is why they weren't all that upset to see him go.

It's really too bad because he's a beast of a power forward that blocks and rebounds as well as anyone, and can handle, get to the rim, and finish. He just has no business being a perimeter player

There's no way a guy like him could be straight up cut without something going down. I suspect SVG told him to cut that shit out or I'll cut you, and he didn't think the guy was serious. Or some blowup happened behind closed doors
post #19309 of 27204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brothersport View Post

manu_1.0.gif
manu_2.0.gif
I have two takeaways from these gifs

1. manu has the perfect old man game
2. Deandre got faked out of his jock and he still recovered enough to make the second shot really difficult
post #19310 of 27204
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRoi View Post

Or some blowup happened behind closed doors

This seems the most likely. He seems like a pain in the ass.
post #19311 of 27204
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brothersport View Post

another instance of why you don't give a great coach gm responsibilities (flip, isaiah, doc, now stan the man). leave that to gods like pop and belichick.


bruh have you not heard about him playing the 3 in detroit...
it did not go well.
they cut the guy.

good luck playing offense w/ jordan's and josh smith's men both totally ignoring them to double paul and griffin in the post. 100% unworkable.


Yes I do know! But just because he was a terrible 3 at Detroit doesn't mean he will be a terrible 3 anywhere else. I mean have you seen Detroit play?

100% unworkable? I guess you completely ignored my post of him going out early and returning with the bench? That is completely impossible, right? Josh doesn't provide a good defensive length at the 3? No way Doc can make him work? No way would he fit perfectly with Clips quick and running transition offense?

It's all about the system and how Doc can integrate him in it. Won't help that Woodson is Docs assistant, who Smith played under during the best time of his career?

And yeah, let def ignore Smith and Jordan and allow them to catch every lobs thrown at the rim from CP3 or Blake.


And yeah, doesn't matter that most analyst feel he will work best with the Clips right and that the Clips could really, really use him?
Quote:
Yet, this might be the best potential option. The Clippers' biggest weakness is at the three. Matt Barnes is having a great year, but routinely, teams that have bested the Clippers have funneled the ball to him, and watched as he couldn't make them pay. He shot 32 percent from three in the playoffs last year. He's a good defender, not a great one, and is only good for catch-and-shoot opportunites or a few open drives.

"But wait," you might ask, "Smith's a worse shooter than Barnes. How does that work?" The Clippers have enough offense; they were the best team in points per possession last season. They have J.J. Redick and Jamal Crawford. They need a player who gives them better defense and can create in more mismatch situations. Smith is that player. Throw in his ability to play back-up four minutes (replacing Glen Davis) and to create a super-athletic smallball lineup with Blake Griffin, and you have a lot of what the Clippers could use.

Doesn't make sense why Clips feel he could be of help either, right? They just want to throw money on a dude who can't help them?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Brothersport View Post

another instance of why you don't give a great coach gm responsibilities (flip, isaiah, doc, now stan the man). leave that to gods like pop and belichick.


And what the hell has Doc done that is so bad? Overall his moves have been good. You're acting like the Clips aren't championship contenders at all. If it weren't for the drama last year and CP3s flops backfiring (neither Docs fault), they could have been int he Finals last year. You can't blame him for Collison moving, he wanted more money and to be a starter. You can't blame Bledsoe from leaving, he was going to demand more money and wanted to be a starter.
post #19312 of 27204
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

yeah man, i watched detroit play a bunch last year. he was terrible there, and he's apparently worse this year (i haven't watched this year).

lol at your histrionics. i suppose i should have said "imo" somewhere in my post. i just happen to disagree w/ you and the guy you quoted and didn't credit.

this is somewhat like the rondo situation, where he was a lot worse the past two years than earlier on, but josh smith was bad at defense during his time in detroit. he was really really great at defense in atlanta, but he has been below-average in detroit, so we don't know if that's due to his decline or the team itself. but given that he was an interior defender in atl, i'd say that there's a lot less evidence he's be a great 3 defender than evidence for it.

i maintain that playing offense w/ smith and deandre jordan would be unworkable, so that means that you're wasting the 1st 5 minutes of every game and crunchtime, or you're just sitting josh smith at crunch time. i hope you realize that starting kendrick perkins for so long is 50% of what everyone complained about scott brooks, so it doesn't really make any sense to throw that time away to an offense that doesn't work. i'm sure they would get some alleyoops out of it, and cp3 and blake are great great passers, but can't you see how that would obliterate everyone's spacing? allow for people to double-team blake with impunity? allow for exponentially more help on paul drives? force blake's game further out from the post to the midrange even more? no one's leaving redick, crawford, or barnes open when jordan and smith are on the court.

look, it mainly comes down to what kind of role he'd be willing to play. you're right, he's obviously tons better than hedo or big baby. he can absolutely take their minutes and improve the team. i don't know if he's willing to just do that, though. if he's willing to come off the bench and take a bit less money, he'd be just what their team needed, if he still has the athleticism.
post #19313 of 27204
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

And what the hell has Doc done that is so bad? Overall his moves have been good. You're acting like the Clips aren't championship contenders at all. If it weren't for the drama last year and CP3s flops backfiring (neither Docs fault), they could have been int he Finals last year. You can't blame him for Collison moving, he wanted more money and to be a starter. You can't blame Bledsoe from leaving, he was going to demand more money and wanted to be a starter.
hmm really? it's pretty well-known doc hasn't done a good job. he hasn't done a horrible one, but certainly not good. he has certainly held the organization together through a lot, and that's wonderful, but i'm just talking about his transactions.

here's what he's done since he got there (let me know if i forgot something, the cbs sports and espn pages notably miss some things):
  • trade bledsoe/caron butler and a 2nd-rounder for redick and dudley. it's pretty obvious now that bledsoe was by far the best player in that trade. that's poor value. maybe they could have done better if they'd just started bled at the 2 and really shown how good he is. either way you can't say this was a good deal.
  • resign chris paul. great job.
  • resign matt barnes. this is a good deal.
  • sign byron mullens as an FA. he was horrendous. traded him and a 2nd-round pick to PHI to dump him.
  • sign reggie bullock. this isn't bad.
  • sign stephen jackson. waived him after literally less than a month.
  • sign sasha vujacic to a 10-day.
  • sign danny granger. he didn't make an impact, then i think he got injured?
  • sign hedo turkoglu. he has been hilarious, but not a useful player.
  • sign big baby. he has not been good.
  • let collison walk. i don't really like collison so i thought this was fine.
  • sign jordan farmar to a 2-year $4.2M deal. i haven't watched the clips enough to tell if he's doing okay, but he's shooting 38%, not assisting a lot, and his +/- is bad. when this happened, analysts met it with general confusion.
  • sign spencer hawes to a 4-year midlevel deal. he's made no impact this year. he may step it up, but they're on the hook for 3 more years and $17M. this deal was somewhat lauded when it happened? can't remember.
  • trade dudley and a 1st for delfino, raduljica, and their own 2nd rounder. delfino and raduljica were both waived. again, a poor dump. dudley has played adequately both before and after he was on the clippers, but not during. that's dudley's fault, but then they sold as low as possible on him, and gave away a real asset.
  • sign cdr and epke udoh. shrug? decent end of the bench guys?


it's pretty clear that doc has a type, and that type is players who were okay in 2011.

i don't think you can look at that list and say that his moves overall have been anywhere near good. he forced himself onto a team w/ two superstars, and he hasn't added much. his big moves were trading bled for redick/dudley, resigning chris paul, resigning matt barnes, signing farmar and hawes, and trading dudley and a 1st for nothing. i like matt barnes a lot as value, but he didn't need to be gm to sign paul, and the other moves have either been average or disasters. a lot of the older guys he's signed haven't had a lot of negative impact, but if you sign them, there's the opportunity cost of not checking out younger guys with any upside left over. he's done a lot of that.

anyway it's not a secret that doc hasn't been a good gm. you can google it easily. they're chip contenders, he hasn't wrecked the team, but his work as gm, as opposed to that as coach, has not helped them towards that.
post #19314 of 27204
Thread Starter 
Wait how is Smith wasted on crunch time? Dude isn't going to come to the Clips to be the superstar, he isn't going to be the first 4 to 5 option to take a shot or make a play to win a game. lol8[1].gif That's not why these teams are after him. But when they need a defensive stop, I still think he is better than Barnes is right now especially guarding taller and faster SF/PF.

Coming into any team that is contending will not have him play having the biggest role. While he isn't going to be in a minor role either, he isn't exactly going to be taking those last minute heaves from beyond the arc in any of the teams interested in him.

He is coming in as a role player for the most part and that is what I am saying he will be and work as with the Clips. If Docs sees that he isn't going to be that type of player, then they simply would not go after him. Even when Doc was first asked, he just said "we'll talk to him" and "we'll evaluate why he was let go", not the immediate "hell yes!" like they would strike gold with him.

But dude is still in his prime at 29 and he is only a season and quarter removed from being a beast of a player in Atlanta, where the system didn't really work for him especially as that number option for the team. The experiment where Detroit thought he'd be the baby Lebron is a bust so he'll be back to being what he was like in Atlanta.

Again, Woodson is with the Clips, the coach in which Smith excelled with so I assume they'd have an idea on how he could help the team or not.



Yes I know some spacing will be sacrificed to an extent but I don't think that will be a big problem as Reddicks shots are often off screens and set-ups. CP3 runs around screens all the time too and could usually capitalize on double teams, its up to Doc to make them pay when that happens.

And Barnes is left open all the time, he is a streaky shooter and watching almost all of the Clips games, it is cringe-worthy seeing him chuck up 3s half of the time. If Smith can offer better defense (again as that quote stated, teams are putting their best player on Barnes because he isn't a great defender anymore and his size when guarding taller guys like Durant and Lebron just makes him a liability more often than not) with his length and athleticism (I am not sure why you would doubt this, dude could still jump out of the arena) then it is worth is especially since with him they could also solve the struggling bench offense.



Now if being a star is his goal and not to win, then he is better off with the Lakers. lol8[1].gif
post #19315 of 27204
the celtics had some bad motherfucking timing with the Jason Smith waiving.

if it happened sooner, or if they knew it was going to happen, I bet they would've held off on trading rondo and went after smith (his best friend) and tried the crazies together until the February trade deadline. Rondo, Smart, Green, Smith, sullinger/olynik is a pretty interesting starting five on paper.
post #19316 of 27204
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brothersport View Post

hmm really? it's pretty well-known doc hasn't done a good job. he hasn't done a horrible one, but certainly not good. he has certainly held the organization together through a lot, and that's wonderful, but i'm just talking about his transactions.

here's what he's done since he got there (let me know if i forgot something, the cbs sports and espn pages notably miss some things):
  • trade bledsoe/caron butler and a 2nd-rounder for redick and dudley. it's pretty obvious now that bledsoe was by far the best player in that trade. that's poor value. maybe they could have done better if they'd just started bled at the 2 and really shown how good he is. either way you can't say this was a good deal.
  • resign chris paul. great job.
  • resign matt barnes. this is a good deal.
  • sign byron mullens as an FA. he was horrendous. traded him and a 2nd-round pick to PHI to dump him.
  • sign reggie bullock. this isn't bad.
  • sign stephen jackson. waived him after literally less than a month.
  • sign sasha vujacic to a 10-day.
  • sign danny granger. he didn't make an impact, then i think he got injured?
  • sign hedo turkoglu. he has been hilarious, but not a useful player.
  • sign big baby. he has not been good.
  • let collison walk. i don't really like collison so i thought this was fine.
  • sign jordan farmar to a 2-year $4.2M deal. i haven't watched the clips enough to tell if he's doing okay, but he's shooting 38%, not assisting a lot, and his +/- is bad. when this happened, analysts met it with general confusion.
  • sign spencer hawes to a 4-year midlevel deal. he's made no impact this year. he may step it up, but they're on the hook for 3 more years and $17M. this deal was somewhat lauded when it happened? can't remember.
  • trade dudley and a 1st for delfino, raduljica, and their own 2nd rounder. delfino and raduljica were both waived. again, a poor dump. dudley has played adequately both before and after he was on the clippers, but not during. that's dudley's fault, but then they sold as low as possible on him, and gave away a real asset.
  • sign cdr and epke udoh. shrug? decent end of the bench guys?


it's pretty clear that doc has a type, and that type is players who were okay in 2011.

i don't think you can look at that list and say that his moves overall have been anywhere near good. he forced himself onto a team w/ two superstars, and he hasn't added much. his big moves were trading bled for redick/dudley, resigning chris paul, resigning matt barnes, signing farmar and hawes, and trading dudley and a 1st for nothing. i like matt barnes a lot as value, but he didn't need to be gm to sign paul, and the other moves have either been average or disasters. a lot of the older guys he's signed haven't had a lot of negative impact, but if you sign them, there's the opportunity cost of not checking out younger guys with any upside left over. he's done a lot of that.

anyway it's not a secret that doc hasn't been a good gm. you can google it easily. they're chip contenders, he hasn't wrecked the team, but his work as gm, as opposed to that as coach, has not helped them towards that.

I honestly have not read much about Doc being a bad GM, not even being sarcastic but I'd love to read some if you post them. Google doesn't really show anything other than threads from other forums.


And you can't really say Doc being GM isn't key to resigning Paul, CP3 was pretty open about resigning due to Doc. Any other coach/GM and CP3 would have likely left.

Older guy signings and other smaller signings aren't that big of a deal. Vujacic and Mullens was to fill the roster and cost little, so is Granger who sank timely 3s in the playoffs. Jackson signing came off Reddick and Barnes injuries. With that said, Reddick was a good fit for CP3 and Blake, no regrets there. Bledsoe had great potential but would demand more money and wanted to start. They were also able to get Collison to replace him which worked fine til he was offered more money, Collison wanted to start so he was going to leave either way. Back to Bledsoe, he excels more in Honacecks system too, running with two fast PGs. That's not Docs system. Cp3 needs shooters around him to space than Bledsoe running with him side by side. I mean there is a reason Hornacecks coaching was a big surprise for everyone, not many expected them to excel so much because that system was somewhat unprecedented. Can't really blame that on Doc.

I agree that Bledsoe or Collison would have been better to stay with the Clips (though I wouldn't get rid of Reddick for either as long as CP3 and Blake are on the team) and I would have loved it and they'd be better if they stayed over Farmar as back-up but money-wise and them wanting to start, then I could understand and see why Doc did what he did.

You also overplay the word disaster. Who have they signed that was a disaster? Disaster has to be team wrecking type of signing where they completely miss the playoffs because of it, like if they trade Blake for Josh Smith type of deal. You said it yourself, the veteran signing hasn't been that much negative and I see no problem in taking who they have seen to produce results than taking a chance on a young talent that may or may not produce. They want to win now and their core is solid and in tact and that is what is the most important. They can't do the wait and see strategy that others are doing.

I mean signing Hawes alone had analysts picking the Clips winning this year before the season started.

I just don't think you can call Doc a bust as a GM until the Clips starts imploding like Isiah and the Knicks. I don't think they are over the cap either and has room to sign others like Josh Smith or a Granger.

Out of all the NBA GMs out there, how many are actually really bad, a lot worse than Doc and have never even been through what Doc has been through the past year or so? Him and the team were ready to walk out this year if their owner didn't sell the team. They were a CP3 fumble and terrible call away from the Western Conference last year.
Edited by RFX45 - 12/23/14 at 11:48am
post #19317 of 27204
Thread Starter 
I found the singular article where you got all your info from, as in almost word for word. lol8[1].gif


Might be better off posting the link and saying you agree than writing all that stuff up.
post #19318 of 27204
lol8[1].gif
post #19319 of 27204
Thread Starter 
Just looking around, here's somewhat the other side of that argument: http://clipperblog.com/2014/08/29/anatomy-of-a-deal-dudley-delfino-raduljica-and-assets/


It also states/implies that it wasn't Doc was somewhat in Sterlings control in his first year:
Quote:
Some will string this trade all the way back to the decision to move Eric Bledsoe at the start of last offseason; that the Clippers gave up Bledsoe and a pick for J.J. Redick. That would be unfair to say the least. All the trades and “would-have-been” trades in Rivers’s first year as general manager plainly suffered under the scrutiny of Donald Sterling, whose impetuousness and indecision specifically in the last year have been well documented. No one really knows how different the roster would look if kept free of meddlesome ownership.


Which also linked to an article in which he stopped a Shumpert trade that Doc wanted to do: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/66204/why-iman-shumpert-is-still-a-knick
Quote:
Clippers coach Doc Rivers really wanted Shumpert, sources say, and Rivers was willing to do a deal that would have sent Darren Collison, Matt Barnes, Byron Mullens and two second-round picks to New York for Shumpert, Felton and Beno Udrih. But Clippers owner Donald Sterling and others within the organization were hesitant to bet on Shumpert after seeing him go down in Wednesday's game at New Orleans, according to sources.


Another trade linked from that article about Sterling denying Afflalos coming to the Clips:
Quote:
Clippers had a deal for Afflalo last summer that was nixed at the finish line by Donald Sterling, I'm told. Have liked him a while



Another link to Sterlings indecision affecting and saying yes and then no to the Bledsoe/Redick deal: http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--clippers--summer-of-success-nearly-thrown-into-chaos-by-owner-012846814.html


Yes they wanted the deal done but the article pretty much stated how terrible that first year was for Doc. Article also stated that Doc being with the Clips is the main reason he resigned:
Quote:
Free agent Chris Paul guaranteed to ownership that the hiring of Rivers would result with his signing of a five-year extension to stay with the Clippers.




Now to not drag to hell, I am not saying Doc is batting 1.000, I don't agree with all his decisions and hell I am even one of the few here who called Doc a very good coach and not yet great, many here said he was already great so I am not exactly a Doc stan or anything like that. I also dislike his coaching decisions in some nights. I am just saying I do not see him as terrible GM, he is good to above average from what I am seeing so far. I won't judge until he leaves in 5 years with the Clips no accomplishing everything just like Scott Brooks, I was up on him a few years back when they keep moving forward and kept getting better and kept getting deeper in the playoffs and making the finals until I realize (and many has as well) that it is pretty much all he is capable of and he hasn't adjusted and still played his players to ground and not developing his talents (OKC actually got talent deep in their bench unlike the Clips).


And in the spirit of the holidays, I will not drag it further and just end my piece there.




HAPPY HOLIDAYS BASKETBALL FANS!!!!!



YA'LL HAVE A GREAT CHRISTMAS AND NEW YEAR!!!!
post #19320 of 27204
the one thing im a little confused about is


does the highest bid get smoove or does the team that smoove picks and signs a contract with get smoove?




i agree that CP3 might've left if VDN kept coaching, but the rest of BS's points are spot on (even if they were somewhat plagiarized). yes there were money constraints but Doc hasn't done a really great job. they have had to give away assets just to get rid of players that they spent a lot of assets to get. that's clearly not great.

the vet signings have been pretty bad. imo he's average, but only because the average is so heavily weighed down by all the shitty GMs like Kahn and Dumars. an avocado could do a better job than Kahn


i still think hawes is a great addition. he's just been plagued by unfortunate injuries. not exactly his fault. also i think the stache automatically gives him a -5 plus minus
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