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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread - Page 1219

post #18271 of 27236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

So I can't have the opinion that only several superstars deserve max contracts? You truly believe everyone that gets max contract deserves it? Because you can simply say that "I think more players deserves max contract than you" but that isn't what I am getting. You seem content to say that I am dumb because I think only a few deserves max contracts. I am not saying teams shouldn't do it, they are forced to to get players but TO ME plenty out there aren't worth it.
obvious straw man, i never said everyone who gets a max contract deserves it. i even mentioned hayward and parsons and implied they're much less worth it than kawhi. i said awhile ago i didn't think klay is worth one (adding that here, but i don't expect you to remember everything i've ever said)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

Deserving and being forced to sign to keep them are different things. It only makes no sense to you because you refuse to understand it.
this sounds like a kobe aphorism after talking to deepak chopra. i don't know what this means. 1st sentence doesn't make sense because your subjects are different (player vs. team). anyways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

Just because you can pay/afford someone a certain amount to stay/come to your team doesn't mean they deserve it or are worth it their contracts. And just because you need a player desperately doesn't mean you aren't overpaying. Seattle thought they desperately needed Rashard Lewis so they overpaid. Wizards thought they needed Arenas so they overpaid. So you are saying that since those teams has the cap and they thought they needed those players in their roster that they didn't overpay?
I mean, obviously you can overpay people. But fundamentally you said that only superstars should get max contracts, right? i think that's crazy cuz you could never build a contending team that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

Again you are confusing what I deem worth of their talent versus what they are worth because the teams are stuck offering you the big money to stay or come to their team.

You aren't getting my point, I am not saying it is bad for business or that you aren't going to overpay. It's competition and it's how it works, you got to pay and most of the time overpay to get a certain players. Some teams even send offer sheets to mess with the teams budget like Houston offering an absurd amount to Lin so NY has to match and overpay, it didn't work. But you think that contract is worth of what Lin gives your team? Because you are acting like all these max contracts are worth it. There are bad and good GMs out there for a reason.
Alright, well first of all, by your definition, every team in the league is forced to "overpay" to contend for a championship. Even MIA paid a boatload to Bosh, and I doubt you think he's one of the "very few superstars" in the league do you? I submit that if every team has to "overpay" as a team-building strategy, then nobody is truly overpaying at all.

As an aside, that Lin contract wasn't absurd to Houston. He got paid $25M over 3 years, which is too much, yes, but isn't outrageous, and esp wasn't at the time (when they thought he was at least an avg starter). The only absurd amt was what NY would have had to pay to keep him, and that's only because their cap and luxury tax was so fucked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

If you truly believe I am saying these teams shouldn't pay players and just let them walk then you are just reaching because that is not what I am saying at all. I am weighing Kawhi price for what he can offer the teams. He was good for one series and I haven't seen him do much more in taking over the offensive side, especially outside of Pops system. He is in a team where he is the fourth best player overall and all hall famers (who all took pay cuts and didn't demand max contracts) with another hall famer coach. I just personally do not see it YET that Kawhi can be that ONE franchise player, worth of a max contract player.

Does that make sense? Because that is pretty damn subjective so i don't even know how you can argue with it?
Yeah, that makes sense. I don't think it's crazy that you have a different evaluation of Kawhi than I do. I do heavily disagree that he's only had 1 good series, and I don't think he's their 4th-best player (I think he's 2nd after Duncan). I totally agree w/ you that he's not a cornerstone franchise offensive player.

I just don't think you can plausibly call it overpaying to give him a max contract. He's around the top 30 players in the NBA, but more importantly, he's super young and improving, and his max contract is way less $$ than an older veteran. I think it'd be crazy to let him walk. I think he'd be doing the Spurs a favor not to hold out for a max contract. I know that at least half the league would absolutely take him on their teams at a max contract, if possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

Of course others will deem him worth it, others won't, I am not alone on this. So why is it a dumb when I say it? I am practically saying the same thing as other here but I am the dumb one? Because it isn't something you get or understand? Because you disagree with it?
1) I didn't call you dumb.
2) I don't think it's "dumb" that you don't think Kawhi doesn't deserve a max contract. I disagree, but that doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion on that. I only think that your theory that only very few superstars in the league should get a max contract doesn't make very much sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

And it is my opinion that very few deserves max contract but by your post, you are practically saying every team that signs anyone for max is worth it because they have the cap space to do so.

Again you are saying (by using Parson and Hayward being max contracts as example) that one player is worth max pay just because others are getting it but that is just not how I see it. That is how things works, sadly, but I look at a players worth differently.
Nah, man. It's not that extreme. I think that WAY MORE players are worth max contracts than you do. I don't think everyone is. I still believe you can overpay people, especially marginal players who get $8 mil or so. I think Kawhi is a talent who would make way more than his potential current max contract on the open market.

Like, there might only be 1-2 teams that would pay Hayward or Parsons the max (or close to it). That doesn't mean that they aren't overpaying. But if you have half the league willing to pay someone, like I am positive they would w/ Kawhi? How could you call that overpaying?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

And ONCE AGAIN, I never said the teams should take that route. I am not talking about the best business sense. We are talking about what you deem the player is actually worth. Not what teams should actually do to win. There is a big difference. For some reason, you chose to read it as if I am saying every team should only sign who I or they deem worthy to a max contract. I've said it over and over again, that isn't how the system works so i don't expect teams to do that.
Yeah this doesn't make too much sense to me...if you think teams need to "overpay" players, then how do you still think that that is overpaying?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

At the end of the day it boils down to this. You think Kawhi is worth $90 mil for 5 years. Fine. I am not saying you or anyone else are wrong (I try not to do that) but I am going to state my opinion. From what I have seen from him, where he plays and how he plays and who he plays with and who he plays for, in the Spurs yes he can get paid that much if the team stays intact and he can excel in that system for the that 5 years which is ideal to his abilities. But do I think he is worth $90m for 5 years to all other teams outside of the Spurs where he has to prove he can score more than 12 pts a game (his average last season) and be more than a spot up shooter? No, I do not think he is there yet so no I do not think he is worth $90m for 5 years outside of the Spurs. I honestly am not even sure he is 100% worth it in the Spurs and if he can be their main superstar once Duncan, Parker and Ginolibil retires in a year or two.
I don't think Kawhi can be their main superstar. But I don't think that means they're overpaying if they give him the max. I think he'd be a decent 2nd banana on offense and he's going to be one of the best perimeter defenders at all times. He's not a great scorer (although 12.8 ppg is a bit misleading cuz he played <30 mpg [it's still super low]). I don't think we disagree too much there.

Also, $90M over 5 yrs sounds steep but you gotta remember that the cap is jumping up 10 million in 2 years or so...so a "max contract" signed now is gonna be chump change then.
way too long/didnt read:
i am not too far from you in terms of evaluating kawhi. i am just baffled by your definition of overpaying players.
post #18272 of 27236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post

Given the Spurs' system I think he's worth 15/5= 75
i think he should get it all. he's a great player, esp for them, and that team is shit without him going forward. you still got pop and buford, but in 3 years, the only above avg player on that team, projected, is kawhi. plus i think he deserves it anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

I thought that exaggeration was an obvious joke? I didn't actually think neo took it seriously and that was directed at him. We shit on each other all the time but whatever.
lol. i don't mind you talking trash, it's just hilarious that i said one thing and you got mad defensive. btw i say dumb shit all the time, that doesn't mean i think i'm a dumb person. it's just an opinion i disagree w/
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

Not to pour more gas in the fire but Paul George has a 5 years $91m contract, now he is well worth that amount. Kawhi is asking $1m less than that and he is still arguably third or fourth best player in the team while George is definitely the best in his and is a legit All-Star/Superstar in the league. Durant has a 5 year/$89m contract, that one is more understandable as I think he signed a couple of years ago (while George signed last year) but Durant is well worth that contract and Kawhi is asking for more. Those are the example of players I see that are well deserved of max contracts.
man, kawhi isn't asking for "more" money than durant. if he got the max, he'd actually be getting a proportionately smaller contract than durant did. durant got the SUPERMAX contract from the derrick rose rule. you know the max contract isn't based in concrete millions, but is only a % of the salary cap, right?

the only reason kawhi would be making more is solely because the cap is way higher now. that's like saying it's bullshit that paul george is getting like $16M now when karl malone was getting paid only $6M in 1998. it's just not comparable.

finally you say paul george is way better, but their PERs are similar (19.4 to 20.1), kawhi rebounded more, stole more, blocked more, turned it over wayyyy less, his TS% was 5% higher, and his eFG% was 9% higher. i think it's closer than you give him credit for, and it's more his role than anything.
^all stats per 36 min
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

Speaking of contracts, I am not sure what the Dubs are waiting for with Thompson when he is willing to sign now for guaranteed money than more money later yet the Dubs are holding out for the extra $3m?
This is kind of bullshit...I think the author of wherever you got that article doesn't know what he's talking about.

The only way Klay would give up money to sign now is if he were to turn down an extension NEXT summer as well, then play the whole season on a qualifying offer of like $4 million. Basically nobody ever does that. So there's really very little downside to the Warriors waiting Klay out. If he's a restricted FA next season, they can sign him to the exact same deal as now, max him out, or someone else will offer him the max, and they can just match it. So they could potentially save a tiny amount of money.

Btw the $3M is 3 million/year, so it's not huge, but it's still a decent amt of savings.
post #18273 of 27236
Thread Starter 
Why is it baffling? It is a subjective opinion and again I am not saying it is the ideal way for teams to do business, it is my way of ranking who is worth a max contract.

As I said George is getting 5yr/$91m, Durant is getting 5yr/$89m, Kawhi is far from that level. Even if you think Kawhi is the second best player in the team, Duncan stlll isn't and never gotten a max contract. I still think Parker is more important than Kawhi though.

Quote:
I mean, obviously you can overpay people. But fundamentally you said that only superstars should get max contracts, right? i think that's crazy cuz you could never build a contending team that way.

Again you are reading it all wrong. I am not talking about making a contending team or a championship team, I am talking about a single players worth. Again you do have to overpay (you admitted you could overpay) to get some key players but that doesn't make the player worth what he is getting paid.

I stand that only superstars should get paid max. is that the world we live in? NO! Do i accept it that it is all business and it is what you have to do to win a chip? YES!

But just because a team has the cap and feels they need to give max to a certain player to get them doesn't make them worth it and then they are overpaying.


Quote:
.if you think teams need to "overpay" players, then how do you still think that that is overpaying?

Yes, even if teams have to overpay, it is still overpaying. I am not sure what is difficult to understand there. lol8[1].gif By your logic everyone who gets paid because the team feels they need them can never be overpaid.

Just because I need to overpay for a Lanvin suit doesn't mean I am not overpaying. I think that analogy works to some capacity. lol8[1].gif


Quote:
Like, there might only be 1-2 teams that would pay Hayward or Parsons the max (or close to it). That doesn't mean that they aren't overpaying. But if you have half the league willing to pay someone, like I am positive they would w/ Kawhi? How could you call that overpaying?

By definition if the player is not worth the money but you pay for it, that is overpaying, whether you are forced to or not, whether others are willing to do so or not. I bring Lewis' and Arenas' contracts again, you truly believe the teams didn't overpay for them because other teams are willing to pay the same to get them? I am not sure you can get many to agree with you if you say yes.

I like Air Jordan XI Concords and thousands of other people do too are willing to pay $1k for it when retail is $150. If I pay $1k for a pair I still overpaid despite others willing to pay the same price for it. Another analogy that I think works. lol8[1].gif



Quote:
I just don't think you can plausibly call it overpaying to give him a max contract. He's around the top 30 players in the NBA, but more importantly, he's super young and improving, and his max contract is way less $$ than an older veteran.

You can and I am. It isn't way less than older veterans or better players either, look at George and Durant contracts I posted again.



I am not going to quote each of your response because what I wrote can pretty much be put after it and that should answer the questions. Looks like we just have a different definition of overpaying. I feel it is based on the players actual worth (again not saying this is what teams should follow) while you feel if the team has no choice or other teams are willing to pay as much that they can't be overpaid. That is simply not how I see it.
post #18274 of 27236
Thread Starter 
Quote:
man, kawhi isn't asking for "more" money than durant. if he got the max, he'd actually be getting a proportionately smaller contract than durant did. durant got the SUPERMAX contract from the derrick rose rule. you know the max contract isn't based in concrete millions, but is only a % of the salary cap, right?

the only reason kawhi would be making more is solely because the cap is way higher now. that's like saying it's bullshit that paul george is getting like $16M now when karl malone was getting paid only $6M in 1998. it's just not comparable.

finally you say paul george is way better, but their PERs are similar (19.4 to 20.1), kawhi rebounded more, stole more, blocked more, turned it over wayyyy less, his TS% was 5% higher, and his eFG% was 9% higher. i think it's closer than you give him credit for, and it's more his role than anything.
^all stats per 36 min


Man you acting like Kawhi contract is decades apart from Durant and George. Point is to me, max players has to be players like Durant and George and no matter what per stats say, you aren't going to convince me that Kawhi is better or close enough to George to be getting paid as much as him. lol8[1].gif

Based on per, you are saying that as a manager you would take Kawhi over Geroge or think these two are practically equal in production? You'd pay Kawhi and be that one star player of your team over George because they are close enough? I mean are we really going to go by Player Efficiency Rating to determine who is the better player of the two?

I mean you are really saying George is not better (or not much better) than Kawhi because of PER? Really?



Quote:
This is kind of bullshit...I think the author of wherever you got that article doesn't know what he's talking about.


And did you just call BS on the guy who just outlined the events that happened? I mean I didn't even post his opinion there, just what transpired so far.
post #18275 of 27236
re: kawhi:
it'd be like if there were a limited audience for your Lanvin suit and 50% of that population wanted to pay just as much as you did. I don't think that's overpaying, I just think that's you not adjusting its value in your mind well enough. air jordans doesn't work because there is no retail price on basketball players.

stop goddamn straw manning me with stupid arguments. 1) i didn't say that rashard lewis's and gilbert's contracts weren't overpayments. 2) the reason those contracts were so stupid was BECAUSE nobody else wanted to pay them that much $$. orlando famously bid against itself to give lewis that much money. washington gave gilbert a max extension when he was out for the year w/ a knee injury.

re: george
are you really incapable of considering degrees? i never said kawhi was as good as george. i just said it's closer than counting stats say it is. you don't need to defend against me arguing something ridiculous because i didn't, jesus. and the whole "george is better so he should be paid more" is a stupid idea in a world w/ max salary caps. that's the bottom line. you should think about that.

forget this kawhi stuff, i don't even like watching the spurs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

And did you just call BS on the guy who just outlined the events that happened? I mean I didn't even post his opinion there, just what transpired so far.
did you read what i wrote at all? i can't believe you complain about other people's reading comprehension.
post #18276 of 27236
Thread Starter 
I am not going to go back and forth but you literally just call BS on the my post where the author just outlined what happened. Not much reading comprehension is needed there.

Yeah you went and explained the situation but dude literally just outlined what happened and you said it is BS and he doesn't what he's talking about.

Even if he posts his thoughts or whatever facts the contracts may be, I am sorry but I am going to go with the guy whose job it is to write about sports and understands the situation better than us.

And again i didn't post the whole article, just what he wrote that happened and called BS and said he didn't know what he was talking about. It is as simple as that. That is liek an announcer simply saying "Kobe sank a 3-point shot" and then you go and call BS and say he doesn't know what he was talking about. lol8[1].gif

But hey you feel you're the expert and knows these situation better than reporters who just outlined the facts so go ahead and go with that.



Quote:
are you really incapable of considering degrees? i never said kawhi was as good as george. i just said it's closer than counting stats say it is. you don't need to defend against me arguing something ridiculous because i didn't, jesus. and the whole "george is better so he should be paid more" is a stupid idea in a world w/ max salary caps. that's the bottom line. you should think about that.


You bring up PER and say they are closer to defend Kawhi getting paid as much as George. What the hell do you expect someone to expect? I never even brought up the stats outside of a small mention of Kawhi ppg then you bring up a stat comparison where you imply they are practically the same in score and you don't want someone to assume that is what you are trying to say or prove? Then why post it if it doesn't really prove anything?

And no it is not stupid to say George gets paid more because he is better because as I have said a million a gajillion times, I am looking at it as a players worth. George is a Superstar you pay to lead the team, kawhi is still in a complimentary role and is still arguable the 3rd best player in his team.

To me Kawhi isn't and to you he is. That is really it.

You keep quantifying the business end and salary cap and such when I agreed that business side it makes sense but I am not considering that in the players value for a max contract worth, I am just looking at WHO I THINK is worth a max contract. My opinion and no one elses. I could put any reason there and my reason is how I see them play and who I think is the best. I don't know why you have to argue to my own category or what I see in a player being worth a max contract.

But let's see, you'll come back with "cap space" and "teams needing players" and "50% of team wanting him so players can't be overpaid". lol8[1].gif Because you have read absolutely nothing I posted.




Quote:
it'd be like if there were a limited audience for your Lanvin suit and 50% of that population wanted to pay just as much as you did. I don't think that's overpaying, I just think that's you not adjusting its value in your mind well enough. air jordans doesn't work because there is no retail price on basketball players.


So if 50% of the population are willing to pay for the Lanvin suit means it's not overpaying? lol8[1].gif Are you serious? You can't even accept that others have a different definition of overpaying? And you came to an exact percentage of 50% of the population or teams wanting something for it not to be overpaid? lol8[1].gif




And look whose getting mad and defensive now? crackup[1].gif
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stop goddamn straw manning me with stupid arguments.
Quote:
are you really incapable of considering degrees? i never said kawhi was as good as george.

You kept doing this too. You keep putting words into my mouth that I never said or you just keep ignoring what I am saying and keep circling to the same thing over and over again. my criteria of someone being worth a max contract is different from yours, that is it.


I don't think kawhi is worth $90m/5years (at least not yet) and that is it, nothing you can say or post will change that. You can call it dumb, you can call it stupid and you can pout stats but that isn't going to change because I watch basketball games and I just do not it see it.. yet.



I am done with this Kawhi situation with you, I already stated all I can say , so go have your last word so we can just move on.
post #18277 of 27236
Woke up, saw 15 new replies. Was expecting indesterum shot analysis. Instead, more Kawhi laugh.gif



iverson3.gif

Miss this guy
post #18278 of 27236
^isn't he with Cavaliers coaching staff now marchal.gif?
Edited by wojt - 10/28/14 at 7:09am
post #18279 of 27236
I can't believe he's only 13th on the all-time field goals attempted list...thought he'd be much higher than that...
post #18280 of 27236
Quote:
Originally Posted by diadem View Post

I can't believe he's only 13th on the all-time field goals attempted list...thought he'd be much higher than that...


Who? Kobe?
(I didn't read all of the overnight posts.)
post #18281 of 27236
Hey RFX45, you should quote other's posts with the user name in it so we can see who said what. Your posts cut out the name somehow.
post #18282 of 27236
Thread Starter 
Oh I didn't want to quote the whole post so I just copy snippets of it. I was having a discussion with one person though.


I think Diadem is talking about Iverson.
post #18283 of 27236
Thread Starter 
It is so weird that most a picking the Clips to come out of the West and actually being champs. I am not too confident on their chances just yet, I know pre-season means jack but they really did try to play hard in it with the starters and they got destroyed in 3s still. They just couldn't defend beyond the arc and their offense is still not as consistent. I hope that is just the pre-season though they did let Griffin and CP3 get some serious burn in some of those games.

I am not sure how Berger picked Spo as Coach of the Year? And the Charlotte coach was picked by another? Really?


206bngj.png
post #18284 of 27236
Leonard deserves a max.
Edited by idfnl - 11/10/14 at 6:10am
post #18285 of 27236
Thread Starter 
No one will own your mantle, my posts actually has some thought and substance, not just trolling for attention.
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