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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread - Page 1216

post #18226 of 27206
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAMOR View Post

well i agree with you 100% here. unfortunately there are only like 7-8 super great players that are worth $35-40 million a year, and 30 teams that want a max player like that. lebron and durant are $40 million/year type players. fortunately you dont need to have the best players to win in this league. a good team and coach, along with the right system, and the best player for your system is good if you want a championship. i hope spurs and kawhi get this contract settled. theyve already proven they can give lots of money to less than proven players (tiaggo), now i want to see them pay their MVP

This is no excuse though, just because owners a pigeonholed to paying max to undeserving players doesn't mean the players deserve it.

Steves initial post was "Kawhi wants max" not "Spurs wants to pay Kawhi max". Huge different in the argument between those statements.
post #18227 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

That wasn't even what was said, I just used Lebron, Wade and Kobe as an example because those are guys who tends to be the one star in their teams at some point in their career. It's hard to say he won't excelt if replaces Paul George because George has a very good teammates and I could see him shine in Indiana.


But I would say that no, he isn't worth max and to be honest very few in the league are worth max contracts. Too many damn NBA players are overpaid.

Nor is he a true Scotsman, apparently.

If you mean he isn't "worth" a max deal because he provides limited social utility and that money would be better spent on elementary school math teachers and public librarians, no argument.

But in the context of this discussion whether a player is "worth" it is only meaningful as a relative judgment, based on the marketplace in which the players' services are bought and sold.
post #18228 of 27206
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerdad View Post

Nor is he a true Scotsman, apparently.

If you mean he isn't "worth" a max deal because he provides limited social utility and that money would be better spent on elementary school math teachers and public librarians, no argument.

But in the context of this discussion whether a player is "worth" it is only meaningful as a relative judgment, based on the marketplace in which the players' services are bought and sold.



Again... Steves initial post was "Kawhi wants max" not "Spurs wants to pay Kawhi max". Huge different in the argument between those statements.


This means he believes he is worth max contract in the league as in if the Spurs doesn't give him max then he believes other teams will and he will move on. Then the discussion is about his value to the whole league and not just the Spurs if he believe he is a max contract player.



I mean seriously, think about it, Steve the biggest Spurs homer of the thread goes "uh oh" on that news for a player that he was creamin for all through the year and playoffs. lol8[1].gif That's saying something. crackup[1].gif
post #18229 of 27206
Dude went toe-to-toe against the best player in the league, youngest Finals MVP since Magic and Timmy, and yet he doesn't crack your Top 30?? Aight then.....
post #18230 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

Again... Steves initial post was "Kawhi wants max" not "Spurs wants to pay Kawhi max". Huge different in the argument between those statements.


This means he believes he is worth max contract in the league as in if the Spurs doesn't give him max then he believes other teams will and he will move on. Then the discussion is about his value to the whole league and not just the Spurs if he believe he is a max contract player.

Right.
So the point of comparison is other players who were eligible for and received max deals (and on the flipside, those who were eligible but weren't able to command them). It's not even close to the case that the list is limited to people who can put a team on their backs and carry them to a championship. But even allowing for the fact that we're now viewing these guys with a bit of 20-20 hindsight, it's hard to argue reasonably that Leonard's not clearly more valuable than a number of guys on that list.


As to your first point -- there's obviously a good chance he'll move on if the Spurs don't offer him a max deal. But I don't think you can automatically assume "I want a max deal" translates into "am irrevocably walking absent a max deal". Of course he wants a max deal. I want an NBA max deal. His chances of getting one are much better than mine, but it's still just a negotiating position at this point.
post #18231 of 27206
yay, something basketball related to argue about - i missed this happy.gif

i think it's likely that Kawhi will eventually get paid the max. too many teams with max slots, an escalating cap figure, all it takes is one offer.and despite his limitations, he's only 22 so teams are going to have to prepay on that upside.

but right now? the dude is a very efficient scorer but he has to be fed the ball in his spots, and be somewhat open. that's a complementary offensive player, not a primary one. that's a Bosh, Al Jefferson or Klay Thompson type player (although i'll be the first to mention that Bosh indeed has a max contract). Blake Griffin became a legit franchise player and superstar when he developed a beastly offensive game and the ability to initiate it himself - that's what we need to see Leonard develop.

on defense, he's already one of the best. he's ridiculous on that end. and the intangibles are great - good attitude, not boastful, obviously willing to be coached.

if he insists on the max, however, the Spurs will have no choice but to pay it. and it's a better gamble than, say, on Joe Johnson. but he's definitely still a second or third tier player at this point in time.
post #18232 of 27206
^agreed, also im not sure Spurs will pay him that though unless he really ups his offensive game this season
He had a great run late in playoffs but he has to do that consistently if he wants a max from Spurs, ofc some
lower grade franchise like Pistons/Wolves may pay him on upside alone
post #18233 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRoi View Post

if he insists on the max, however, the Spurs will have no choice but to pay it. and it's a better gamble than, say, on Joe Johnson. but he's definitely still a second or third tier player at this point in time.
I think sometimes at the beginning of seasons we judge players by where they were at the middle of last season. I think leonard really grew a lot as the season progressed and, of course, he had a pretty amazing finals. He's a perfect fit for the Spurs system, and, let's face it, Timmy and Tony are on the slide (admittedly, from a height). I think a) the Spurs don't have any choice but to sign him ... he's the future of hte franchise at this point and if you want to know how hard it is maintaining a franchise with aging stars and no inheritors, look at the lakers; and b) i think he may have a breakout year this season. that is, providing he didn't pull a zach randolph and sit around eating pizza all summer. but from what i've read about him, he doesn't seem like that kind of guy.
post #18234 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by foodguy View Post

I think sometimes at the beginning of seasons we judge players by where they were at the middle of last season. I think leonard really grew a lot as the season progressed and, of course, he had a pretty amazing finals. He's a perfect fit for the Spurs system, and, let's face it, Timmy and Tony are on the slide (admittedly, from a height). I think a) the Spurs don't have any choice but to sign him ... he's the future of hte franchise at this point and if you want to know how hard it is maintaining a franchise with aging stars and no inheritors, look at the lakers; and b) i think he may have a breakout year this season. that is, providing he didn't pull a zach randolph and sit around eating pizza all summer. but from what i've read about him, he doesn't seem like that kind of guy.
totally agree with your comment regarding fit. Kawhi is a known quantity and someone whose rights they already control. he also provides that continuity between generations. the Spurs are not going to throw that away to try to chase the chance of getting someone else.

but even his finals performance was characterized by very efficient, but somewhat limited offense. he's just not an elite shot creator yet. and i'm not sure how he'll add that to his game. he's not a natural off-the-bounce player, or a natural shooter. he's got elite quickness and athleticism, maybe he can become a Kobe-type perimeter post player? i dunno. he is indeed a perfect fit for the Spurs system, which itself depends on Tony Parker. i'm sure Pop can adapt the system once Parker declines (the Spurs still play pretty well when he's injured), but again - we still haven't seen Kawhi in an offense built around him.
post #18235 of 27206
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo_Version 7 View Post

Dude went toe-to-toe against the best player in the league, youngest Finals MVP since Magic and Timmy, and yet he doesn't crack your Top 30?? Aight then.....


lol8[1].gif You judge him from one series? And that desrves a max contratc and you put him up there with Lebron?

He excelled but you are out of your mind if you think he could have done the same without Pop or Parker or Duncan or Green or Ginobili, etc... Again you take him away from that system and dude will be a Trevor Ariza at best, t least that's how I see him.

You want to put him in the top 30 because he is a very good 3rd maybe even fourth option in his team? Ok, that's you and your problem. lol8[1].gif

By the way, Tyron Lue effectively stopped Iverson from single-handedly winning the chip against he Lakers in 2001 after destroying the team with 51 pts in game 1, does that make Lue top 30? Does he deserve max contract or even a quarter of that for going toe to toe with the best scoring PG of our generation? Your logiv is flawed just because dude excelled in one series. Danny Green excelled and dropped some bombs behind the arch a year before except they didn't win the chip.

Come back to me in a few years when Kawhi actually wins something as the teams leader or more than the youngest athletic guys because the top 3 players in his team are old as fuck, when he leads for the whole season, then maybe you'd have something there.

Don't be a homer and just look at the award the dude gets because of one series.
post #18236 of 27206
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerdad View Post

Right.
So the point of comparison is other players who were eligible for and received max deals (and on the flipside, those who were eligible but weren't able to command them). It's not even close to the case that the list is limited to people who can put a team on their backs and carry them to a championship. But even allowing for the fact that we're now viewing these guys with a bit of 20-20 hindsight, it's hard to argue reasonably that Leonard's not clearly more valuable than a number of guys on that list.


As to your first point -- there's obviously a good chance he'll move on if the Spurs don't offer him a max deal. But I don't think you can automatically assume "I want a max deal" translates into "am irrevocably walking absent a max deal". Of course he wants a max deal. I want an NBA max deal. His chances of getting one are much better than mine, but it's still just a negotiating position at this point.


Well the way Steve posted it sounds like he is demanding it hence the "uh oh". He is actually holding out for a max deal based on the article I read so it's not like he just stated in the papers that "yeah, i'd want a max deal if possible" or he was caught off the record saying it.
Quote:
As Kawhi Leonard holds firm on his desire for a maximum contract, extension talks with the San Antonio Spurs have failed to gather traction despite a looming Friday deadline, league sources told Yahoo Sports.




Again this isn't just a "everyone wants a max deal" type of situation, he is actually somewhat demanding it despite Duncan, Parker and Ginobili taking less money in their whole career with the Spurs.

Quote:
The San Antonio Spurs have had star-laden rosters since before the phrase "superteam" was a part of the NBA lexicon. First, they had the luxury of the Twin Towers in 1999, and then by 2003 they had three future Hall-of-Famers in place in the team's core. How do the Spurs do it? R.C. Buford and Gregg Popovich draft really well, avoid bad contracts better than any other front office and manage the salary cap sheet expertly.

Oh, and the Spurs convince all of their stars to take below-market salaries for the good of the franchise.

It's amazing, in retrospect, how much heat LeBron James and friends got for taking minor pay cuts to play together in Miami given that the Spurs have been doing that for ages. Tim Duncan has 14 All-NBA honors in 17 seasons. He's made more than $20 million in only three seasons because he consistently signs for less than the max. Just two years ago he took an $11 million pay cut after a(nother) All-Star season, all so that the Spurs could keep their other free agents and sign, uh, Nando de Colo. Two years before that, in 2010, Duncan signed a short deal leaving $11 million on the table to help the Spurs get back to the Finals.

Tony Parker is a five-time All-Star, four-time All-NBA honoree, four-time NBA champion and one-time Finals MVP. He's never made more than $13.5 million in a season because the Spurs keep convincing him it's in his long-term interest to take less and keep the club together. Manu Ginobili is a two-time All-Star and one-time Sixth Man of the Year, and potentially the third best shooting guard of his generation. He's made $100 million in a 12-year NBA career, or less than what Joe Johnson makes over five years.


Now keep in mind that those guys took less money in their prime (which I don't think you could argue were bigger and better than Kawhi is now, hell I'd still take Parker and Duncan over Kawhi right now) yet Kawhi is demanding to get max contract or he'd walk. Now he obviously isn't holding the team hostage but he sure are putting pressure on the team.

As been said before he will likely get it because other teams will likely give/offer him that price to get him or just crew with the Spurs but is he then worth of that price? To me, he doesn't.
post #18237 of 27206
I never said he was on LeBron's level and admitted as much in my previous post....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo_Version 7 View Post

....he can't drag a team of no names to the Finals ala LeBron or A.I.


And if you don't think he is Top 30, there's no need to be a dick about it
post #18238 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo_Version 7 View Post

I never said he was on LeBron's level and admitted as much in my previous post....
And if you don't think he is Top 30, there's no need to be a dick about it


fight[1].gif
post #18239 of 27206
Thread Starter 
I'm being a dick because I disagreed? lol8[1].gif


Damn me being gone in this thread for months has made you soft.


I blame indesertums shot analysis of every player in the league!


crackup[1].gif
post #18240 of 27206
My point is that veteran superstars like Duncan have taken less to keep the team together. Asking for the max will be viewed as selfish, and that is not the Spur way. I fear he will be traded.

e.g. pretty much what rfx said...
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