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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread - Page 1205

post #18061 of 27205
Shawn Marion and Joakim Noah do a weird two handed over shot that somehow go in

TBH I feel like it's just bad coaching. Like I see Drummond do FTs and he doesn't turn enough and his release is weird. Maybe I'm biased but I feel like shooting is the one aspect that you can always improve
post #18062 of 27205
yea i think there's very very few historical cases of nba players who are poor ft shooters becoming above average shooters. like i think there is basically two (chris webber and karl malone).

free throw shooting should be the purest distillation of shooting, right? so how come so few players dramatically improve ft shooting while things like 3 pt shooting can improve relatively more? i don't really know. i don't think you can attribute it all to poor coaching.

also you have to take into account that the players w/ the worst shooting %s typically have gigantic hands, so not all of the normal shooting advice may be fully applicable. some bigs can obviously overcome that, but it does harder overall. and obviously there's the psychological aspect of it, which may or may not be harder to work on by a shooting coach. like dwight shoots 80% in practice sometimes, right? but 50% on game nights.

we're comin at this from opposite ends of the spectrum, truth is prob somewhere in-between.
post #18063 of 27205
^ was going to add Timmy d but his numbers are all over the place

post #18064 of 27205
.817 2 years ago! wtf.

god i miss yao. yao would friggin shoot technical free throws for his team. even when he misses them it's perfect. stupid rafer alston. i might have posted this before, but i don't care.
edit: hey, kobe has some hair!
post #18065 of 27205
I think free throw shooting isn't a purer form of shooting. It's more of a gimped form of shooting simply because you can't jump. Jumping gives you balance and it's almost instinctive. Countering that instinct is hard. A lot of problems I see is that players pause too much at the top and pretty much try and shoot with just their arms (Drummond, DJ). All the good ft shooters I can think of gain speed and power with their legs which transfer to the ball in one fluid motion. Heels come up almost to jump but just stop.

Who's that one guy who air balled two free throws and basically stayed up top for like 2 seconds before he shot? I'm thinking of that dude.

A hunch I have and can't prove cuz I'm on my phone is that there is a correlation between being a bad free throw shooters and being a bad jump shooters (at best average). You'd have to look up sportsvu stats for open jump shots with defenders not being close by tho cuz shorter guys will have more complications from defenders than bigger guys.

Definitely not a perfect correlation but a much greater than random correlation

My hunch about big players is that none of them are really forced to learn to shoot jump shots. Like Blake's jump shot got noticeably better this season and his free throw also got noticeably better (also a counterpoint for your few big guys free throws gets better point) Whereas DJ is still reliant on post ups and offensive rebounds and his free throws still suck. To get better at free throws you need to learn that fluidity and one motion and extension.

You don't see a lot of big guys transition from a post up game to a jump shot game and the guys that do have good form and decent free throws (I'm thinking love, bosh, ibaka).

Also it see a lot of coaches telling players to square up to the basket. This is ok for guys that are smaller (eg Nash squares up) but guys with bigger pecs need to turn away to lineup their elbow to the basket. Otherwise the arm comes up kinda unstable.
post #18066 of 27205
In other somewhat unrelated news

Espn suspends bill Simmons for three weeks for his goodell rant on grantland podcast

Eric Bledsoe signed to suns for $70 million over 5 years. They have three awesome PGs now. No idea what they're thinking but I guess If they go with their 2 PG plan they need a backup PG as well
Edited by indesertum - 9/24/14 at 10:26pm
post #18067 of 27205
it was pretty funny when everyone was ripping rich paul (lbj's best friend and bledsoe's agent) for totally fucking up bledsoe's contract negotiation, to the pt where lbj had to friggin endorse bledsoe on ig. but i guess he got him the best deal, so who knows.

i'm not really sure i buy your theory that ft shooting is a gimped form of shooting and that big man shooting would be overall improved if they focused more on jump shots. jump shots are inherently more complex so it doesn't make too much sense to me to complicate the process of teaching. like how do you get better at something by introducing way more variables and making it harder? makes much more intuitive sense to me to focus on the rote basics of the shot on the ground. not sure about your blake example about jump shooting. isn't that just one giant confounding variable?

sidenote: mkg shot 75% on fts in his rookie year and then 61% (!) this year. blake griffin came into the league shooting 64%, went down to 52, and last year was at 71.5%. I wouldn't say he qualifies yet as vastly improved to above-avg. Malone went from 48 to a consistent 80. webber from 53 to 80 (and then back down to 64 lol).

i would think there's a huge correlation btwn ft shooting and jump shooting, right? rare are the ppl who are good 3 pt shooters and bad ft shooters. bruce bowen comes to mind. i guess he was only good at the corner 3.
post #18068 of 27205
(@brothersport)
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I can't look up the espn jump shooting stats on my phone cuz it loads too slowly but just looking at the worst free throw shooters most of them have no jump shot. Drummond, DJ, Josh Smith, Dwight. Conversely the best jump shooters have great free throws. It seems there's a correlation. It might not be causation (ie good free throws cause good jump shots or good jump shots cause good free throws) but I think it's related. I would wager improving one improves the other.

I'm not saying the best way to improve free throws is to develop a good jump shot but I think it would definitely help.

If you watch durant do his free throws almost everything is the way he shoots minus the shoulder thing.

Blake tho went from far below average to almost average (62 to 72 is a huge improvement) and just subjectively the number and success rate of his face check jumpers went up a lot.

In my mind a jump shot is easier because you can jump and fully extend whereas the timing of when to stop your feet on a free throw is tricky as is keeping the motion whole and fluid. That's really tricky. You have to think about the speed you're biringing it up and how much upper body power to use. Big guys can just use their arms to throw the ball in whereas smaller guys need to use their legs to generate enough power. I would wager it's something about using their legs that helps (maybe helps their shoulders to relax back the way a regular junpshot would?)

I just feel like if the big guys turns more it would help a lot. A lot of the.best guys actually square their feet up even bigger guys like dirk but I feel like at their level the degree to where their upper body has to turn is so engrained they don't need to turn their feet. Most of them don't even need their feet to be balanced at all to make regular shots (like dirk and curry) cuz their upper body form is so dialed in they can compensate.

Who knows. I'm sure everybody's said something or other to Drummond and DJ and Dwight to the point where they just shrug everything off and just do what they do and probably won't ever improve.

I find for myself I have to remind myself to keep my shoulders relaxed because otherwise something about the tension makes the ball too strong
post #18069 of 27205
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

I think free throw shooting isn't a purer form of shooting. It's more of a gimped form of shooting simply because you can't jump. Jumping gives you balance and it's almost instinctive. Countering that instinct is hard. A lot of problems I see is that players pause too much at the top and pretty much try and shoot with just their arms (Drummond, DJ). All the good ft shooters I can think of gain speed and power with their legs which transfer to the ball in one fluid motion. Heels come up almost to jump but just stop.

Who's that one guy who air balled two free throws and basically stayed up top for like 2 seconds before he shot? I'm thinking of that dude.

A hunch I have and can't prove cuz I'm on my phone is that there is a correlation between being a bad free throw shooters and being a bad jump shooters (at best average). You'd have to look up sportsvu stats for open jump shots with defenders not being close by tho cuz shorter guys will have more complications from defenders than bigger guys.

Definitely not a perfect correlation but a much greater than random correlation

My hunch about big players is that none of them are really forced to learn to shoot jump shots. Like Blake's jump shot got noticeably better this season and his free throw also got noticeably better (also a counterpoint for your few big guys free throws gets better point) Whereas DJ is still reliant on post ups and offensive rebounds and his free throws still suck. To get better at free throws you need to learn that fluidity and one motion and extension.

You don't see a lot of big guys transition from a post up game to a jump shot game and the guys that do have good form and decent free throws (I'm thinking love, bosh, ibaka).

Also it see a lot of coaches telling players to square up to the basket. This is ok for guys that are smaller (eg Nash squares up) but guys with bigger pecs need to turn away to lineup their elbow to the basket. Otherwise the arm comes up kinda unstable.

who said you can't jump on freethrows
you can foo.gif
post #18070 of 27205
Last time free throw shooting was brought up, I agreed with edmorel. Best FT shooting form is the underhanded method AKA the "gay" way.
post #18071 of 27205
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

In other somewhat unrelated news

Espn suspends bill Simmons for three weeks for his goodell rant on grantland podcast

Eric Bledsoe signed to suns for $70 million over 5 years. They have three awesome PGs now. No idea what they're thinking but I guess If they go with their 2 PG plan they need a backup PG as well

do you have a link for that podcast?
post #18072 of 27205
Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post

who said you can't jump on freethrows
you can foo.gif

You can technically jump but you practically can't for fear of lane violation. A normal jump shot your feet move forward and it's a lot harder to control where you end up
post #18073 of 27205
you don't have to shoot from the line either, you can move 1-2 feet back no problemo marchal.gif
post #18074 of 27205
Yes. You just have to stay in that half circle but my point is while that's technically true nobody does it because practically it's hard to judge where you'll land and at least do it on a consistent basis. If you even toe the line that's a lane violation and nobody would risk that. Also tradition.
post #18075 of 27205
it's pretty easy to do, i could learn it easily
it is still easier do shoot a regular set shot, because you have more control but i guess a jumpshot could work for people that suck at FT
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