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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread - Page 1199

post #17971 of 27359
I wouldn't be surprised if we lose the WC. The rest of the world is good enough that we need to bring our best to win (proven during the pre-Colangelo USMNT days), and we are sending a grand total of two from the All NBA first and second teams
post #17972 of 27359
"Besides the Gasol brothers, Spain's squad includes NBA players Serge Ibaka, Jose Calderon, Ricky Rubio, and Victor Claver and former NBA players Rudy Fernandez, Juan Carlos Navarro and Sergio Rodriguez."

I would say Spain has clearly the better frontcourt, they might knock off US
post #17973 of 27359
Depends. USA has the best shooters playing in the tournament hands down. Just a bunch of zone busters. If Steph Curry, Damian Lillard, James Harden, Klay Thompson, and Kyle Korver start splashing 3's, it won't matter that we have no depth in the frontcourt (not even sure that's true with Anthony Davis, Andre Drummond, and Boogie Cousins on the team).

Also, Spain is in the Group of Death with Argentina and France. USA has by far the easiest schedule in the tournament.
post #17974 of 27359
Who's the two from all nba? Curry and harden? I thought lillard was on there too

Oh he's on the third team
post #17975 of 27359
Quote:
Originally Posted by diadem View Post

Also, Spain is in the Group of Death with Argentina and France. USA has by far the easiest schedule in the tournament.

Spain is not in the group of death, France is since they will be playing without Parker lol
gg France
post #17976 of 27359
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

Who's the two from all nba? Curry and harden?
Yes.

Regarding the shooters comment, you usually don't win FIBA games if you can't control the paint. The old disorganized US teams tried to win with shooting and fast breaking - it worked against the lesser teams but broke down against the bigger, more disciplined and cohesive teams like Argentina and Spain

Yes, you win if the team shoots well but every team goes cold at some point. Then you have to dig deep on defense, rebound well and ride it out.
post #17977 of 27359
Well Haren and Curry are great players and obviously in terms of guard play USA should have edge over anyone but then again Gasols and Ibaka are quite a handful in the paint so it should be interesting
post #17978 of 27359
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRoi View Post

Regarding the shooters comment, you usually don't win FIBA games if you can't control the paint. The old disorganized US teams tried to win with shooting and fast breaking - it worked against the lesser teams but broke down against the bigger, more disciplined and cohesive teams like Argentina and Spain

Yes, you win if the team shoots well but every team goes cold at some point. Then you have to dig deep on defense, rebound well and ride it out.

Well, there are different ways to control the paint.  You don't necessarily need size to bang bodies down low.  You can control the paint with dribble penetration and slashing.  For the 2010 FIBA tournament and the 2012 Olympics in London, the only legit center that Team USA had on the roster was Tyson Chandler.

 

Here's every made field goal from Team USA in the gold medal final against Spain in London:

 

Not a whole lot of post play.  Just a lot of outside shooting and slashing.  It's a good formula that I think is not too difficult to replicate with the current roster.

 

As far as digging deep on defense goes, Anthony Davis had 5 blocks against Brazil last night.


Edited by diadem - 8/17/14 at 11:55am
post #17979 of 27359
Right, so who initiates that offense? Derrick Rose can do it, but he's coming off multiple injuries. Curry can, sort of, but he's not going to finish at the basket and if he's creating, your best shooter isn't finishing.

And you need defense and rebounding. That Olympic team did it with a team effort and everyone was a good rebounder at their position. The US can win if Anthony Davis is a monster every game, and either Drummond or Boogie can also give quality minutes (just read that Boogie got hurt, btw)

But that's a lot of responsibility on Rose and Davis's shoulders. If either falters, I don't like our chances. Also, the last FIBA team was the Kevin Durant show, and the things he does are irreplaceable.

But who knows, Pau is not who he was and Manu is out, so no one's at full strength.
post #17980 of 27359
If Spain plays very traditional 2-3 zone defense again I think we'll be ok.

With great shooters you can overload the strongside with good shooters and that'll force rotations or open up lanes.

For example watch the video above and notice how Spain defends the pick and roll. They have

1) just one guy defending both the handler and the screener while the center stays in lane and one guy to defend the strong side corner -> one of the two offensive players involved gets an open three pointer

2) center is forced to rotate up to stop dribble penetration (eg early on in the video the center which is one of the gasol brothers has to step up all the way to the free throw line to prevent penetration)

If 2 happens one of the two corner defenders have to step in and help. If they don't help USA get easy penetration. Stick korver and klay in the corner and it's going to basically turn into 1v1 curry or rose or harden versus marc gasol in the middle lane cuz you can't ice (force the ball handler to the base line) in a 2-3 zone

You could even do guard guard screen and rolls on a loaded strong side (ie korver in the strongside corner and curry and harden pick and roll) so either player gets an open three or the defending center is forced to come out to the perimeter which he is way too far away to do.
post #17981 of 27359
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRoi View Post

Right, so who initiates that offense? Derrick Rose can do it, but he's coming off multiple injuries. Curry can, sort of, but he's not going to finish at the basket and if he's creating, your best shooter isn't finishing.

 

You forgot Kyrie.  He can get into the lane at will.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by HRoi View Post
 
And you need defense and rebounding. That Olympic team did it with a team effort and everyone was a good rebounder at their position. The US can win if Anthony Davis is a monster every game, and either Drummond or Boogie can also give quality minutes (just read that Boogie got hurt, btw)

 

I never said you didn't need defense and rebounding.  I just think you can get enough (more than enough, actually) out of this roster to win it all.  Guys like Kenneth Faried and Mason Plumlee crash the boards like they're possessed and give you a lot of hustle on the defensive end of the floor.  They might not have the size of Marc Gasol, but they have the energy and move a lot better than Gasol (I'm honestly not worried about Pau at this point in his career and Ibaka I feel is neutralized by Davis).  I can see the Gasols getting gassed by the 4th quarter if Team USA plays at the pace it wants to and then Ibaka will basically be abused in the paint.

 

Boogie's MRI came back negative, so he's gonna play.  Drummond might not see much floor time because he's an atrocious free throw shooter and that's just bad news in FIBA, but if the other guys get in foul trouble, he's not a bad backup to have stashed on the bench.  I'm fairly certain the frontcourt rotation will primarily be Faried-Davis-Plumlee-Cousins with Parsons and Gay getting time at the 4-spot to spread the floor in small-ball lineups.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by HRoi View Post
 
But that's a lot of responsibility on Rose and Davis's shoulders. If either falters, I don't like our chances. Also, the last FIBA team was the Kevin Durant show, and the things he does are irreplaceable.

But who knows, Pau is not who he was and Manu is out, so no one's at full strength.

 

I don't think D-Rose has to carry this team.  Kyrie is just as quick and shifty (maybe not as explosive) and can create offense as well.  I also don't think Davis needs to go huge every game as long as Cousins gives you a productive 15 to 20 minutes a game.  I do agree that KD was the centerpiece of the last Team USA, but his contributions are not irreplaceable.  This team still has an MVP in D-Rose.  Instead of getting most of your offense from the forwards with KD, Melo, and LeBron, this current lineup is more guard-centric and most of the offensive production will be generated from the backcourt core of Rose-Irving-Curry-Harden.  It'll be a little different, but the outcome should still be the same, I think.

post #17982 of 27359
I don't think offense will be a problem with all the talent you guys have
getting murdered on glass and in the post might be
post #17983 of 27359
Not gonna quote indesertum and diadem's posts so this doesn't become a wall of text, but, some thoughts -

Regarding screen roll, Miami and SA showed how to contain it - have the screener's man jump out hard and force the handler back, while four guys zone and rotate. Spain might have the only personnel to do this effectively, though...maybe France too

I'm not a believer in Kyrie yet. He has, IMO, the best handle in the NBA, but he doesn't use it to beast to the rim like Lebron, Rose or Wade in his prime do. The whole "break your man down and pull up for a jumper" play that I see in his highlights is the worst play you can make.

We also have a frontcourt that brings energy, defense, and all that, but beyond Anthony Davis are liabilities on offense.

Basically, I'm not saying we have a shit team - just that the competition is close, and there's no margin of error if they come out sloppy or get an injury/foul trouble. And I'm disappointed that our best players all came up with an excuse (except for the injured ones, of course)
post #17984 of 27359
Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post

I don't think offense will be a problem with all the talent you guys have
getting murdered on glass and in the post might be

Yeah, that's the popular line of thought right now, but I think the Brazil game was a good benchmark.  They have some quality bigs in Nene, Tiago Splitter, and Anderson Varejao who obviously aren't as good as Spain's bigs, but they're seasoned NBA vets nonetheless.  Still, Team USA had a +10 advantage on Brazil in the rebounds category, 44 to 34.

 

http://archive.usab.com/mens/national/14_mnt_exh_01_box.html?ls=iref:nbahpt13a

post #17985 of 27359
well pop is known for hating zone and I'm pretty sure miami doesn't do the very traditional 2-3 zone spain does. they do however exactly what you describe where the roll man defender contains the ball handler and everybody rotates (weak side helper comes to protect paint and corner defender bumps the roll man then gets back to the corner guy). miami likes to bring the roll man defender way way high up for a trap and if the offense can get past that it's a 4v3 situation. whereas san antonio prefers to ICE the ball handler and force him away from the middle but the roll man defender still stays a little back.

in a zone there is no roll man defender. only other guy sometimes involved is the center in the middle of the paint who doesn't really venture outside the paint almost like a super super conservative pick and role defense. the zone is basically a really really hardline pack the paint defense where you give up outside shots in exchange for protecting the paint. its basically saying you guys can shoot all you want but we're not going to let you get easy lay ups. which is hard if the other team has lots of shooters.

like watch how spain defends the PnR here

there is no roll man defender. center and corner defender sits way far back and gives up outside shots.

same thing here



in this one the corner defender steps up whereas the other ones the center kinda steps up. if korver was in that corner the defender would not do that


spain does make adjustments tho. like here the zone breaks down when lebron steps in the pain and passes the player in the slot and spain kinda reverts to a man on man defense but it seems like they're not used to it. they allow KD to get to the middle because the roll man defender steps way high up so pau has to come back to the middle which leads to an open lebron.


nowadays most nba teams will do hybrid zones at most
Edited by indesertum - 8/17/14 at 4:06pm
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