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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread - Page 1191

post #17851 of 27247
How does that work? They have cap room to trade but not enough to sign him? They couldn't trade away Bennett and varejao and Thompson or something for draft picks and still get love?
post #17852 of 27247
He's getting "only" 15m this season but he would only extend/sign for max next season. Cavs won't have cap room for that coz you cannot sign player over the salary cap unless you own his bird rights which Cleveland would obtain by this trade.
post #17853 of 27247
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

Golden state should do it. Iguodala as a 2, green as a 3, love at 4, Bogut at 5. Festus as back up 5 (and love can play a 5 in smaller lineups). Speights as back up 4 and 5. Brandon rush back up 2 and 3. Livingston as backup 1. Curry can also play off ball as a 2. Their defense is pretty good and it's not like David lee and klay are defensive monsters. Really average at best, klay a little above average. Love is definitely a better shooter than klay on and off the ball

Assuming Barnes is in the deal

Klay is a pretty good defensive player and has to spend a lot of energy chasing around the other team's best guard or wing player to save Curry from having to do so. I like Iggy but he's not getting any younger and hasn't been bulletproof healthwise to date. Klay is worth a max deal at current levels particularly given the expected changes in the cap which won't come into play until after he's re-signed. Livingston obviously has had health problems as well. Dramond Green is better than people realize - the Twolves should take him, Lee and Barnes and call it a day. I think the Warriors give up too much perimeter defense if we give up Klay.
post #17854 of 27247
Thread Starter 
Lots of veterans are now showing interest in joining the Cavs as usual, there's still Ray Allen, Marion is still "deciding" and Billups said he'd love to play in Cleveland.

The Cavs won't have a hard time getting veterans that can still produce or defend off the bench.
post #17855 of 27247
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

How does that work? They have cap room to trade but not enough to sign him? They couldn't trade away Bennett and varejao and Thompson or something for draft picks and still get love?
it's mainly cuz kyrie's contract is going up to 15M after next season. so if you look here: http://data.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/cavaliers.jsp
in 2015-16, lbj is getting 21.6M, kyrie is getting 14.7M, wiggins is getting 5.7M. That's already 42, and Love will make around 20M in his 1st year. That's 62, and you need roster space for like 7 other guys and still need to get under the cap. Minimum salary is around 900K or so, for 2nd rders and undrafted FAs. The cap next year is supposed to be ~63M, and nobody knows how much it's going to jump after that.

I'm probably missing something but I don't really think it's possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnFacconable View Post

Klay is a pretty good defensive player and has to spend a lot of energy chasing around the other team's best guard or wing player to save Curry from having to do so. I like Iggy but he's not getting any younger and hasn't been bulletproof healthwise to date. Klay is worth a max deal at current levels particularly given the expected changes in the cap which won't come into play until after he's re-signed. Livingston obviously has had health problems as well. Dramond Green is better than people realize - the Twolves should take him, Lee and Barnes and call it a day. I think the Warriors give up too much perimeter defense if we give up Klay.
I like Klay on D and Iggy/Livingston have certainly had health issues, but they're still two great PG defending options, I think that's more than enough to make up for Curry. Draymond is pretty great too. But are you saying that Minny should take the Draymond/Lee/Barnes package over Wiggins?
post #17856 of 27247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brothersport View Post

it's mainly cuz kyrie's contract is going up to 15M after next season. so if you look here: http://data.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/cavaliers.jsp
in 2015-16, lbj is getting 21.6M, kyrie is getting 14.7M, wiggins is getting 5.7M. That's already 42, and Love will make around 20M in his 1st year. That's 62, and you need roster space for like 7 other guys and still need to get under the cap. Minimum salary is around 900K or so, for 2nd rders and undrafted FAs. The cap next year is supposed to be ~63M, and nobody knows how much it's going to jump after that.

I'm probably missing something but I don't really think it's possible.
I like Klay on D and Iggy/Livingston have certainly had health issues, but they're still two great PG defending options, I think that's more than enough to make up for Curry. Draymond is pretty great too. But are you saying that Minny should take the Draymond/Lee/Barnes package over Wiggins?

but then how can they afford love at all? $15 m for kyrie, $20 mil for bron, $20 mill for love is already $55. need 12 other players at $800k or so and that puts you at $64.6 mil. can't afford varejao, can't afford waiters, can't afford thompson
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnFacconable View Post

Klay is a pretty good defensive player and has to spend a lot of energy chasing around the other team's best guard or wing player to save Curry from having to do so. I like Iggy but he's not getting any younger and hasn't been bulletproof healthwise to date. Klay is worth a max deal at current levels particularly given the expected changes in the cap which won't come into play until after he's re-signed. Livingston obviously has had health problems as well. Dramond Green is better than people realize - the Twolves should take him, Lee and Barnes and call it a day. I think the Warriors give up too much perimeter defense if we give up Klay.

livingston played almost all the games in brooklyn last year. no health problems at all.

klay's defense is overrated. he's a little above average. 38th in defensive win shares, but 300th something in defensive rating. he's good at mirroring the other guy and his wingspan and size is a big advantage when guarding point guards but he tends to run smack dab into the screen and doesn't have a great feel yet for ICE. he also gets caught reaching a lot, but he's going to get there. he's a max player only because there's a dearth of young 2 way 2 guards. too many young 2 guards that are below average in defense. just being a little bit better than average defense gets you max as a 2 guard



warriors defense actually slightly better with him off court

this is kevin love



wolves about the same on defense on or off court

warriors have enough perimeter defense without klay. their defense was really good last year but offense was pretty stagnant. it would more often than not end up in a curry, klay, or barnes iso. think of all the open shots love and curry would generate just by being on the floor

no way wolves only take green, lee, and barnes when cavs are offering wiggins, bennett, and a future pick.

the thing is i feel like warriors front office really overestimates the value of their own players that other teams give them. they think lee and green and barnes and klay are a lot better than what other teams give them credit for
Edited by indesertum - 8/7/14 at 2:09pm
post #17857 of 27247
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

but then how can they afford love at all? $15 m for kyrie, $20 mil for bron, $20 mill for love is already $55. need 12 other players at $800k or so and that puts you at $64.6 mil. can't afford varejao, can't afford waiters, can't afford thompson
do you mean this coming year, or the year after that? this coming year (14-15) kyrie's only making 7, and love is making 15. The year after that, who knows what's going to happen. Hopefully for the Cavs they can get rid of Tristan Thompson, who's making 7. But overall, they would be going over the cap and potentially paying luxury tax. That's allowed, since you're allowed to go over the tax to resign your own guys.

That's the essence of what wojt was saying: you can't go over the cap to sign a FA like love. But if you trade for him, you can then go over the cap as much as you want to resign him to a new contract.

is that what you're asking?
post #17858 of 27247
i meant 2015-2016 when kyrie's contract comes in place especially but also the years after. yes that's what i was asking. i thought the cap jump takes place in 2016? is that the 2015-2016 season or the 2016-2017 season?

but i see what you're saying


I thought this was really fun. tells you where the rebounds are taken given the position of a shot. looks like generally you want to stay on the other side of the basket and further away depending on how far the shot is taken

http://courtvisionanalytics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/rebounds1.swf




the thing is i highly doubt lacob wants to go over the luxury tax limit.
post #17859 of 27247
SF: Grantland Edition
post #17860 of 27247
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

he's a max player only because there's a dearth of young 2 way 2 guards. too many young 2 guards that are below average in defense. just being a little bit better than average defense gets you max as a 2 guard

well it's hard to stay in front of players these days and guards get exposed the most
I like Klay especially that tandem with Curry, not sure I'd want to give him up. Not because Love isn't better but if you flip them your team don't get that much better. If they want to be in contention they would have to keep Klay and get Love imo, so maybe that move makes more sense for Cavs since it could get warriors not much closer than they already are.
post #17861 of 27247

Durant has apparently withdrawn from the USA Basketball team.

post #17862 of 27247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo_Version 7 View Post

SF: Grantland Edition

Only when indesertum makes a rambling six-page post trying to explain the salary cap by way of an analogizing to the plots of various Molly Ringwald movies.
post #17863 of 27247
indesertum - props for obviously knowing a lot about what you speak. The problem I have with giving Klay up for Love is that it puts a lot of pressure on either Curry to start playing big boy defense (which I don't think he can do, and if he can do it I think it will come at the expense of his offense) or require Iquodala and Livingston to both be healthy. I know Iggy's numbers looked great last year (well, his advanced numbers) but I think he looked stiffer and stiffer as the year wore on and would expect him to be materially less effective this year than he was last year. I get that Livingston was injury free this year, but still don't feel comfortable with his health. My biggest worry as a Warriors fan is that aside from Klay and Draymond, I don't feel like I can count on any of them to stay healthy for a full 82 games plus playoffs. Let's not forget, Love missed a lot of games with his weird hand injuries and concussion, so it's not like he's bulletproof.

I'd also add that it's really hard to compare defense across positions. David Lee has a better DRPM than Klay but not because he's a better defender.

As for the Warriors overvaluing their own talent, I don't necessarily disagree, but there certainly are guys people don't properly value. Draymond Green is a great example. He was 4th in RPM last year among small forwards, and 10th in WAR. Kerr will give him more minutes and he could turn into a much bigger name.
post #17864 of 27247
Durant pulls out of Team USA....the curse is real


KDair.gif
post #17865 of 27247
oh my god durant nooooo. spain is at least even w/ the us to win now, right? who starts for us? rose/curry/harden/parsons/davis??? we basically don't have any power forwards. do we move davis to the 4 and put cousins back in at the 5?
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

i meant 2015-2016 when kyrie's contract comes in place especially but also the years after. yes that's what i was asking. i thought the cap jump takes place in 2016? is that the 2015-2016 season or the 2016-2017 season?

but i see what you're saying

the thing is i highly doubt lacob wants to go over the luxury tax limit.
not sure about the cap jump. it already went up 5M this offseason so i kind of doubt it's going to go up another 5M immediately. but even if it does i still don't think it's possible for cleveland to acquire that many 2nd round picks or street FAs and 0 veterans to get under the cap. even if they could, then you're left w/ LBJ, kyrie, love, and wiggins and a shitload of shitty rookies? tbh I don't know if that's better.

if lacob wants to keep this current core past next year, he's might have to go over the luxury tax line. in 15-16, lee is making 15.5M, bogut is making 12M, iggy is making 11.7, curry is making 11.4 (!!!), shaun livingston is making 5.5, barnes is making 3.9 (on a team option). That's 60. if the salary cap line is, say, 65M, then klay's max contract 1st year is gonna be $16.3. So that's 76.3M with only 7 players. draymond green has a player option he's going to decline, so that's probably another 6M at least, to make it 82.3M. tax line was 77M this year and will presumably go up a bunch, but who knows by how much? this isn't super difficult to manage, but they'd have to make a move or two.
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