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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread - Page 1179

post #17671 of 27359
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

I think love to chi is a better fit but only if they don't give up butler. Chi has the defense but not the offense. Love would be the perfect solution. Cavs need more defense than offense. Cavs actually should have gone for gasol not love. Gives them the cap space flexibility and a 4/5 to let varejao rest


Just read:

In their pursuit of Kevin Love, the Bulls have reportedly offered the Wolves a package of Taj Gibson, Doug McDermott and Nikola Mirotic.

It's a legitimate offer and according to SheridanHoops.com, the Wolves may actually prefer it to the Cavaliers' theoretical offer of Andrew Wiggins, Anthony Bennett and a future first-round pick. Neither team could include rookies for almost a month, as they can't be traded until 30 days after signing their rookie deals, but the teams could 'unofficially' agree to a deal in the meantime.

This deal makes more sense.
post #17672 of 27359
Quote:
Originally Posted by nthrugandma View Post

looks like the only team in the west that could possibly give the Lakers a run for their money is a healthy Spurs overall a much weaker conference.
ca

^ i know its spam, but still.. crackup[1].gif
post #17673 of 27359
They sucked the one year popovich fired the then head coach after a terrible start and coached himself with like half the season left. Then Robinson got injured almost right away and they got the number one pick and immediately the next year they had a 50 plus win season. So you could say pop sucked as a coach half a season at most. Also fired the coach before the Robinson injury not after

I'm not going to sit here and say pop is perfect and there's no luck involved (they traded dragic for Malik Hairston on draft day but I don't think anybody saw dragic turning out this good) but they draft well enough often enough with terrible draft slots
post #17674 of 27359
i have tons and tons and tons and tons of confidence in thibs' ability to create an elite defense out of below-average parts. we just finished watching a playoff series where chicago was relying on dj augustin and kirk hinrich to create any semblance of offense. any!! now dj augustin and carlos boozer are gone. and chicago can't take on love because of his defensive limitations?

i have all the faith in the world that if they acquire love for butler and gibson, their defense will suffer a little (they might fall to the top 5, or top 7, from perennially being #1 or #2), but their offense will improve tremendously. man, no one on that team can freaking score. how is love's offensive improvement to the system not substantially more important?

p.s. gasol and love are totally different players. love is an elite 3-pt shooter at a big man spot, maybe the best rebounder in the league, and a whopping EIGHT years younger. gasol is a high basketball-iq, great-passing player who played worse defense last year than love, is probably just an average mid-range shooter who can't take 3s, and can't play the 4 on defense anymore. gasol is a lot more similar to noah than love. it seems untenable to me to play noah and gasol together for long stretches, so i don't see an overlap w/ love and gasol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

MINN hasn't accepted such an offer. Gibson I'd trade but I wouldn't package Butler. They just got Gasol anyway. And you underestimate Butler, he's going into his 3rd year and has huge potential.
i would have believed this on butler before last year, but not as much anymore. he's going into his 4th year, and he really really struggled on offense last year. they needed to rely on him more on offense last year, and he shot <40% from the field (brandon jennings!!), his PER was 13.5, his usage rate was 17% (how in the world?), and he assisted on fewer plays than derek fisher and thaddeus young.

he is great on defense. great! and he's a wonderful story and i root for him. but he has shown 0 signs of ever being able to carry an offense as even its 2nd option. he's a far cry from kawhi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diadem View Post

I called it garbage because 1.) it's a bad trade compared to getting Andrew Wiggins from the Cavs and 2.) with Chicago having acquired Gasol already, there's a bit of redundancy between Love and Gasol. Love is obviously the better player than Gasol, but Taj Gibson gives you some versatility in terms of defense, and now he's gone.

And yes, Thibs, a defensive-minded coach, would definitely not be happy losing 2 very good defensive players in a trade. I agree that in a vacuum, Butler/Gibson for K-Love is a no-brainer for whoever is getting Love, though.
1) I agree with you wholeheartedly. 2) taj gibson is very very good at defense, but thibs is crazy at defense so it makes way more sense to me to compensate for his offensive weaknesses by getting a game-changing offensive player, at the expense of those more talented at D. 3) i honestly don't know if this is a worry. as in, if they trade butler/gibson for love, does thibs just resign? i know he was justifiably pissed after they saved $$ by getting rid of deng. i doubt it though, he still has a few years left, and who wouldn't want the chance to coach 2 superstars (1 hopefully healthy) and a star in noah.
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

yep, you have a point but Durant has taken his team to multiple playoffs and the Finals. Love is yet to make the playoffs. Is there a player in what you would consider the current Top 10 that has not made the playoffs in his career?
yea but the point is that you can't just look at someone's shitty record and say that that is evidence that they're not worth trading for. every scenario is different, and past (team) results do not adequately indicate value or worth, or future impact.

there isn't a current top 10 player that hasn't made the playoffs yet. i'd compare kevin love to blake griffin sans chris paul, or to early career kevin garnett, who made the playoffs starting his 2nd year, but never advanced out of the 1st round for 8 straight seasons. i don't think love is as good as prime-kg was, and i think love should have been good enough to make the playoffs this year, but it's a similar story. who was coaching and who was their best teammate? seriously, name kevin love's best teammate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

I think this is what people miss or at least don't care to see. Of course you would trade Butler/Gibson for Love, but nothing happens in a vacuum. Is Chicago better with Love/Gasol and no Butler/Gibson or better with Gasol (or Love) and Butler and Gibson? Its like my joke trade earlier, the starting 5 of SA for Love. There is no one on the SA 5 that Minn would take straight up for Love, most people may not even take Parker/Leonard straight up for Love. Yet SA has a perfect team and rather than just fill the rosters with as many stars as possible, they fill it with players that better the overall team, regardless of their individual stats.
chicago is better with love. i don't see any very compelling reasons as to why they wouldn't be.

this SA love is completely and totally warranted, but imo too many people are using their system as a standard to build towards. i don't think a single other team in the league is close to having what san antonio has. dallas would be closest, but on a smaller scale. san antonio has a system where their tentpoles have been indoctrinated and help develop it for 10+ years, where they have an incredible offensive AND defensive system that gets them annually in the top 10, often top 5 in efficiencies. their offense is predicated on elite passing and elite spacing.

even if you wanted to strive towards that in chicago, thibs has shown no ability to conjure up that sort of offense, butler is not a good passer and a below-avg shooter, and gibson is a pretty good player but not a great passer either. love is a transcendent offensive player that allows everyone else to move with so much more space, that would be so perfect for such a cramped, withered offense like the bulls.

i'm not sure how your joke trade is that related. obviously i don't think trading love for duncan, parker, danny green, kawhi leonard, and tiago splitter is a good trade for the spurs. just like trading rose and noah for love wouldn't be a good idea.
post #17675 of 27359
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

yep, you have a point but Durant has taken his team to multiple playoffs and the Finals. Love is yet to make the playoffs. Is there a player in what you would consider the current Top 10 that has not made the playoffs in his career?

While true, that didn't happen until Presti drafted Ibaka, Westbrook, and Harden. That's four of the best 25 players in the league drafted by one team over the course of three consecutive seasons.

Look at the stiffs that Kahn has surrounded Love with over the years. Rubio, Flynn, Derrick Williams, and Wesley Johnson. Traded or let go through FA (I can't remember) Al Jefferson. Traded away Ty Lawson and Trey Burke (for Shabazz Mohammad). Traded away Brandon Roy. If the NBA hadn't created the Stepien Rule, I would say that Kahn is the worst GM ever. Just failure of epic proportions.
post #17676 of 27359
At least Kahn drafted love with the number 5 pick. Who did the knicks ever get? Just a barrage of terrible GMs
post #17677 of 27359
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

At least Kahn drafted love with the number 5 pick. Who did the knicks ever get? Just a barrage of terrible GMs

There was a guy named Patrick Ewing, you may have heard of him. Since Ewing, I think number 5 is the highest we've had (picked Kenny "Sky" Walker) and I think Galinari was a 5 or 6 pick. Knicks actually draft well when they draft late, early picks they've sucked in and they make terrible trades.
post #17678 of 27359
Yeah but Ewing was the reason they created the NBA draft lottery (well also the rockets the year before tanking to get Hakeem). He was the easiest pick anybody could have made. And they still couldn't do anything with him

It's true Knicks made decent late draft picks (and some bargains this past draft) but generally they suck and even if they get a good one they trade it away if they hadn't already traded it away years earlier
post #17679 of 27359
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

Yeah but Ewing was the reason they created the NBA draft lottery (well also the rockets the year before tanking to get Hakeem). He was the easiest pick anybody could have made. And they still couldn't do anything with him

It's true Knicks made decent late draft picks (and some bargains this past draft) but generally they suck and even if they get a good one they trade it away if they hadn't already traded it away years earlier

They came within 1 win of a chip with him and lost to SA 4-1 or 4-2 (although he was injured in that series). He never won a chip but he did make it further than a lot of players including you know who and you want to talk about not playing with any other stars???? The team that went up against Houston was Ewing, Starks, Mason, Oakley and Harper. Harper was past his prime, Starks and Mason I think the Knicks found in the CBA/D League.

BTW, I was watching game 4 I think, Anthony Bonner (who??) had just dunked on someone on Houston, the crowd is going wild and I was losing my mind and next thing I see on TV, some fucking white bronco being chased on a California highway. Man was I pissed.
post #17680 of 27359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brothersport View Post

i would have believed this on butler before last year, but not as much anymore. he's going into his 4th year, and he really really struggled on offense last year. they needed to rely on him more on offense last year, and he shot <40% from the field (brandon jennings!!), his PER was 13.5, his usage rate was 17% (how in the world?), and he assisted on fewer plays than derek fisher and thaddeus young.

I never said he was capable of carrying a team, a 2nd offensive option or anything like that. His value is as a stopper and he plays with a ton of heart. His offense can still mature, he did score almost 14 pts a game last season and he averages 2 steals a game.
post #17681 of 27359
Most of all, Butler doesn't take shit from no one


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post #17682 of 27359
re: eric bledsoe, just to clarify his options, he can get an offer from any other team, which the suns can match, he can agree to a contract w/ the suns, or he can sign a 1 year 3.7M qualifying offer w/ the suns, after which he'd be unrestricted next year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

I never said he was capable of carrying a team, a 2nd offensive option or anything like that. His value is as a stopper and he plays with a ton of heart. His offense can still mature, he did score almost 14 pts a game last season and he averages 2 steals a game.
alright, so a young stopper + old-ish borderline starter PF <<<< kevin love
post #17683 of 27359
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

At least Kahn drafted love with the number 5 pick. Who did the knicks ever get? Just a barrage of terrible GMs

Kahn didn't even draft love. He traded O.J. Mayo to MEM for Love. It's like the only trade that's ever worked out for him.

In fact, if I were Cleveland, I just say to Kahn "Make us an offer you think is fair". It would inevitably work out for Cleveland.
post #17684 of 27359
btw i asked zach lowe why houston's not going after bledsoe and he just said they don't have cap room. i totally forgot about the ariza contract, but it looks like that's why they can't afford anyone else in the double digits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggskip View Post

Kahn didn't even draft love. He traded O.J. Mayo to MEM for Love. It's like the only trade that's ever worked out for him.

In fact, if I were Cleveland, I just say to Kahn "Make us an offer you think is fair". It would inevitably work out for Cleveland.
kahn's not there anymore, he got fired. i guess it's flip saunders making all the decisions now.
post #17685 of 27359
you talked to zach lowe? i jelly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggskip View Post

Kahn didn't even draft love. He traded O.J. Mayo to MEM for Love. It's like the only trade that's ever worked out for him.

In fact, if I were Cleveland, I just say to Kahn "Make us an offer you think is fair". It would inevitably work out for Cleveland.

david griffins done a pretty good job so far (although its only been a few months. so yeah... i think the trade actually would go well if thats what happened
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