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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread - Page 1049

post #15721 of 27250
Thread Starter 
Spurs is just too good with their rotation and they do not rely solely on pick and rolls to create shots, Pop and his players has mastered their ball movements.


And I swear Fisher has something on Brooks and that is why dude gets so much burn and Butler isn't any better on defense and can really knock down spot up shots, they were better off keeping Martin. But damn let Jackson and especially Lamb get some PT, they should have been getting loads and loads of time in the regular season so they have more bodies for the playoffs.
post #15722 of 27250
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

I respect your opinion but the spurs individually are a lot less talented than the thunders even without ibaka. Their offense just stall after one or two sets. On defense they get really confused with all the constant motion sets. Eventually their defense breaks down and spurs have an open shooter. I don't think anybody on the spurs are capable of creating anything by themselves. Your defense needs to be extremely precise and think about rotations one or two steps ahead.

2 years ago I think okc lost the first two then won four straight but they had ibaka and Harden then
i dunno, obv the spurs' stars are less talented than the okc stars, but overall i think they have a more talented team. best players on the 2 teams: KD, RW, then prob Parker, Duncan, Kawhi, Reggie Jackson, Manu, Splitter, Adams, Collison, Diaw, Green, Belinelli, Patty Mills. Spurs have 9 out of the top 14 players, and they all play. They don't really have any weak spots, and anybody having a bad game just gets replaced. Thunder have so many weaknesses. Sefolosha/Butler are poor match-ups for this series, Perkins/Fisher beyond washed up. Lamb and Jones are true unproven unknowns, mainly cuz Brooks hasn't developed them during the season.

Plus they have sooooo much familiarity w/ each other and the coaching staff is head and shoulders above everyone else. They are just a kick-ass team, and should be favorites to win the title. I don't think they would have lost either game even w/ Ibaka in.

Don't get me wrong, I've long thought that Brooks needs to be fired for the Thunder to get appreciably better. But I don't think there are many, if any, coaches that could win this series for OKC w/o Ibaka.
post #15723 of 27250

No way Westbrook is more talented than Parker. maybe you can argue that he is latently more talented but has not developed fully because he tends to make poor decisions, but I will argue that making good decisions is as much part of the talent as athletism.

 

Quote:
 I don't think anybody on the spurs are capable of creating anything by themselves.

 

LOL

post #15724 of 27250
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRoi View Post

It hasn't felt like the Thunder were ever in it, even for one minute, over the last two games. I know we've all dogpiled Scotty Brooks, but every time you watch an OKC game it's obvious how wasted their talent is in this offense. And did Ibaka really count this much?


He doesn't. Brooks is one of these guys that the players really like, in that situation you just can't be brutally honest. We had this argument in this thread prly a year ago where I said that I didn't believe Westbrook should be the PG and Chuck said it last night in the aftershow... start Jackson and move Westbrook to the 2. They need some scoring on the court. FFS, I think the other starters scored like 5 points again. Pop would have managed the loss of Ibaka much better than this.

On the flip side, I'm wondering if SA is peaking too soon again. 2 years ago in this position, they lost 4 strait after winning like 20 in a row. They need to keep that level tucked away for the next series. OKC ain't winning 4 in a row this time around, and unless Brooks moves his ass and changes the lineup, they'll likely capitulate and get swept.

Lastly, Splitter was very impressive last night.
post #15725 of 27250
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

I don't think anybody on the spurs are capable of creating anything by themselves.
Yeah, this is just false. Tony Parker slashes to the rim every other possession and when it's not him, Manu is Euro-stepping his way into the paint. Leonard can also put the ball on the floor and drive, and obviously you can always dump the ball down to Tim Duncan on the low block with his back to the basket...
post #15726 of 27250
The Spurs are the old guys at the gym who you think you can take in a pick-up game because they can't run and jump as well as you and your friends. Half an hour later, you're losing by 20 points and wondering what the hell just happened.
post #15727 of 27250
Duncan ok still has some post moves. But as an eyeball test it seemed parker and ginobili either need a mismatch created by a previous screen on the other side or they need a screen themselves or they need great spacing generated by their shooters in the corners (like with the mavs who also had dirk switching onto them). Neither they or kawhi can be used as a go to ISO guy in the waning seconds of the shot clock. That's what I think of creating for yourself. Like capable of making a shot or collapsing defenses with zero help. Parker especially gets a ton of help on screens so his defender is two steps behind which parker can take advantage of.

It's more a credit to pop that kind of ISO play is very rarely needed or used. Just look at okc play. Every other play ends as ISO. Almost never happens on spurs except maybe when occasionally a defender is too far out and any one of their shooters can nail a three

Westbrook is way more talented than parker with more upside. Better stats this year and people tend to forget how bad Parker 's shooting was early in his career. He worked real hard for several years on his jump shot. Westbrook is only going to get better and decision making isn't something inherent. People can get better at passing and making decision. Westbrook assists numbers improve every year
post #15728 of 27250
Parker can still beat his man one on one pretty much anytime. In fact, much of the Spurs' sets start with him doing so to start the defense bending in different ways and eventually getting discombobulated. You are right that they also have a lot of sets where they go the other way and just run him off screens though.

Ginobili has lost it, though, I agree. But his passing is still ridiculous, and he's crafty as ever
post #15729 of 27250
^ Manu not so much anymore, but he can get to the rim easily if he gets a screen. To me Parker in the last two seasons is best PG in the NBA,
maybe not better than CP3 but not worse either, he is scoring with great efficiency and makes the right decision 99% of the time. Just a great
player to watch. He can obv create for himself, the basket that iced game1 and almost won game6 of the finals last year should be enough to back that up smile.gif


OKC being outmatched is not even Brooks fault. SAS is just that good these last 2 seasons. He doesn't have the personel to match the Spurs.
Look at the make up of both teams.... SAS is full of great to good passers and have a point guard who is much better at getting open shots for
the whole team. Even their secondary point(Manu) is better passer than anyone on OKC. OKC would have to defend at Bulls/Pacers level for to have a good chance
relaying solely on Westbrick/Durant .

And Fish played really decent game 1(probably only guy who contributed outside Russ and Kev). So don't blame it on him.
post #15730 of 27250

Nice trolling Indecertum, Parker´s  FG% and 3P% were always higher than Westbrook's and I do not see any improvement in APG. Yes, he rebounds more, but he is a bigger guy as well. Also because SAS plays different offence than OKC does not mean they do it because they are somehow less talented, this is just ridiculous claim. The game is not about last minute heroics barreling to the paint without a screen and being double-teamed or taking a lot of contested 3P shots, it is exactly about avoiding such situations if possible. SAS had only one overtime this regular season.

 

Regular season

Year Team GP GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
2008–09 Oklahoma City 82 65 32.5 .398 .271 .815 4.9 5.3 1.3 .2 15.3
2009–10 Oklahoma City 82 82 34.3 .418 .221 .780 4.9 8.0 1.3 .4 16.1
2010–11 Oklahoma City 82 82 34.7 .442 .330 .842 4.6 8.2 1.9 .4 21.9
2011–12 Oklahoma City 66 66 35.3 .457 .316 .823 4.6 5.5 1.7 .3 23.6
2012–13 Oklahoma City 82 82 34.9 .438 .323 .800 5.2 7.4 1.8 .3 23.2
2013–14 Oklahoma City 37 37 30.7 .432 .347 .811 5.7 7.0 1.9 .1 21.2
Career   394 377 34.3 .432 .302 .814 4.9 6.9 1.6 .3 20.0
All-Star   3 0 20.0 .548 .125 .000 4.7 2.3 1.0 .0 15.7

 

 
Year Team GP GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
2001–02 San Antonio 77 72 29.4 .419 .323 .675 2.6 4.3 1.2 .1 9.2
2002–03 San Antonio 82 82 33.8 .464 .337 .755 2.6 5.3 .9 .1 15.5
2003–04 San Antonio 75 75 34.4 .447 .312 .702 3.2 5.5 .8 .0 14.7
2004–05 San Antonio 80 80 34.2 .482 .276 .650 3.7 6.1 1.2 .1 16.6
2005–06 San Antonio 80 80 33.9 .548 .306 .707 3.3 5.8 1.0 .1 18.9
2006–07 San Antonio 77 77 32.5 .520 .395 .783 3.2 5.5 1.1 .1 18.6
2007–08 San Antonio 69 68 33.5 .494 .258 .715 3.2 6.0 .8 .1 18.8
2008–09 San Antonio 72 71 34.1 .506 .292 .782 3.1 6.9 .9 .1 22.0
2009–10 San Antonio 56 50 30.9 .487 .294 .756 2.4 5.7 .5 .1 16.0
2010–11 San Antonio 78 78 32.4 .519 .357 .769 3.1 6.6 1.2 .0 17.5
2011–12 San Antonio 60 60 32.0 .480 .230 .799 2.9 7.7 1.0 .1 18.3
2012–13 San Antonio 66 66 32.9 .522 .353 .845 3.0 7.6 .8 .1 20.3
2013–14 San Antonio 68 68 29.4 .499 .373 .811 2.3 5.7 .5 .1 16.7
Career   940 927 32.6 .495 .316 .752 3.0 6.0 .9 .1 17.1
All-Star   6 0 18.3 .522 .167 1.000 1.8 4.7 .8 .0 8.8
post #15731 of 27250
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

Neither they or kawhi can be used as a go to ISO guy in the waning seconds of the shot clock. That's what I think of creating for yourself. Like capable of making a shot or collapsing defenses with zero help. Parker especially gets a ton of help on screens so his defender is two steps behind which parker can take advantage of.

he can do it the westbrick way too
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

Westbrook is way more talented than parker with more upside. Better stats this year and people tend to forget how bad Parker 's shooting was early in his career. He worked real hard for several years on his jump shot. Westbrook is only going to get better and decision making isn't something inherent. People can get better at passing and making decision. Westbrook assists numbers improve every year

People tend to overrate upside (esp when it means only or almost only athletic ability; str, vert speed). Kenyon Martin, Amare, Stromile Swift had more 'upside' than Duncan but look where they are now. Amare can't play without knees, Martin never reached his and Stromile Swift is probably dead by now.
post #15732 of 27250
Oh shit. Fact checking.
post #15733 of 27250
i didn't realize what i said was so controversial. if i'm wrong then i'm wrong. i'm not out to troll anybody especially spurs stans. it just seemed that way and clearly i don't have stats to back me up. in the current system production is split among like 8 players more evenly than any other team. so its hard to separate spurs the individuals from the system they're in but imo spurs the individuals in any other system or team wouldn't be so productive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post

^ Manu not so much anymore, but he can get to the rim easily if he gets a screen. To me Parker in the last two seasons is best PG in the NBA,
maybe not better than CP3 but not worse either, he is scoring with great efficiency and makes the right decision 99% of the time. Just a great
player to watch. He can obv create for himself, the basket that iced game1 and almost won game6 of the finals last year should be enough to back that up smile.gif


OKC being outmatched is not even Brooks fault. SAS is just that good these last 2 seasons. He doesn't have the personel to match the Spurs.
Look at the make up of both teams.... SAS is full of great to good passers and have a point guard who is much better at getting open shots for
the whole team. Even their secondary point(Manu) is better passer than anyone on OKC. OKC would have to defend at Bulls/Pacers level for to have a good chance
relaying solely on Westbrick/Durant .

And Fish played really decent game 1(probably only guy who contributed outside Russ and Kev). So don't blame it on him.

I'm sorry but parker is not even close to best PG

he's 48th in estimated wins added, 45th in PER, 60th in win shares. there's like a dozen point guards that played better than him this season.

but to your credit he is great player to watch and somehow he always knows exactly how to produce the best play
Quote:
Originally Posted by kissmyjazz View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Nice trolling Indecertum, Parker´s  FG% and 3P% were always higher than Westbrook's and I do not see any improvement in APG. Yes, he rebounds more, but he is a bigger guy as well. Also because SAS plays different offence than OKC does not mean they do it because they are somehow less talented, this is just ridiculous claim. The game is not about last minute heroics barreling to the paint without a screen and being double-teamed or taking a lot of contested 3P shots, it is exactly about avoiding such situations if possible. SAS had only one overtime this regular season.




Regular season




































































































































































































































Year Team GP GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
2008–09
Oklahoma City
82 65 32.5 .398 .271 .815 4.9 5.3 1.3 .2 15.3
2009–10
Oklahoma City
82 82 34.3 .418 .221 .780 4.9 8.0 1.3 .4 16.1
2010–11
Oklahoma City
82 82 34.7 .442 .330 .842 4.6 8.2 1.9 .4 21.9
2011–12
Oklahoma City
66 66 35.3 .457 .316 .823 4.6 5.5 1.7 .3 23.6
2012–13
Oklahoma City
82 82 34.9 .438 .323 .800 5.2 7.4 1.8 .3 23.2
2013–14
Oklahoma City
37 37 30.7 .432 .347 .811 5.7 7.0 1.9 .1 21.2
Career   394 377 34.3 .432 .302 .814 4.9 6.9 1.6 .3 20.0
All-Star   3 0 20.0 .548 .125 .000 4.7 2.3 1.0 .0 15.7


 

















































































































































































































































































































































































































Year Team GP GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
2001–02
San Antonio
77 72 29.4 .419 .323 .675 2.6 4.3 1.2 .1 9.2
2002–03
San Antonio
82 82 33.8 .464 .337 .755 2.6 5.3 .9 .1 15.5
2003–04
San Antonio
75 75 34.4 .447 .312 .702 3.2 5.5 .8 .0 14.7
2004–05
San Antonio
80 80 34.2 .482 .276 .650 3.7 6.1 1.2 .1 16.6
2005–06
San Antonio
80 80 33.9 .548 .306 .707 3.3 5.8 1.0 .1 18.9
2006–07
San Antonio
77 77 32.5 .520 .395 .783 3.2 5.5 1.1 .1 18.6
2007–08
San Antonio
69 68 33.5 .494 .258 .715 3.2 6.0 .8 .1 18.8
2008–09
San Antonio
72 71 34.1 .506 .292 .782 3.1 6.9 .9 .1 22.0
2009–10
San Antonio
56 50 30.9 .487 .294 .756 2.4 5.7 .5 .1 16.0
2010–11
San Antonio
78 78 32.4 .519 .357 .769 3.1 6.6 1.2 .0 17.5
2011–12
San Antonio
60 60 32.0 .480 .230 .799 2.9 7.7 1.0 .1 18.3
2012–13
San Antonio
66 66 32.9 .522 .353 .845 3.0 7.6 .8 .1 20.3
2013–14
San Antonio
68 68 29.4 .499 .373 .811 2.3 5.7 .5 .1 16.7
Career   940 927 32.6 .495 .316 .752 3.0 6.0 .9 .1 17.1
All-Star   6 0 18.3 .522 .167 1.000 1.8 4.7 .8 .0 8.8

i don't know what you did with the formatting but it was fucking up the quote

lol dude calm down. are you from san antonio?

its only in parkers 4th year that he gets reasonable fgp and his 6th year that he develops a 3 point shot which is pretty similar to westbrook's career arc


also guess which system produces more open shots and relies less on iso plays? id wager parker has a far lower usage rate than westbrook and everybody knows greater usage = less efficiency unless you're a freak like lebron or durant
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRoi View Post

Parker can still beat his man one on one pretty much anytime. In fact, much of the Spurs' sets start with him doing so to start the defense bending in different ways and eventually getting discombobulated. You are right that they also have a lot of sets where they go the other way and just run him off screens though.

Ginobili has lost it, though, I agree. But his passing is still ridiculous, and he's crafty as ever

i think parker can penetrate if an average defender is on him. in the portland series he abused lillard. in this series he abuses reggie jackson when he gets that. but a better perimeter defender takes away that penetration

there's been a few crazy ginobili passes this playoff season tho. a few needling the thread bounce passes or through the leg passes. he does have that eurostep but he can only really pull it off on slow bigs like perkins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post

he can do it the westbrick way too
People tend to overrate upside (esp when it means only or almost only athletic ability; str, vert speed). Kenyon Martin, Amare, Stromile Swift had more 'upside' than Duncan but look where they are now. Amare can't play without knees, Martin never reached his and Stromile Swift is probably dead by now.

I've laid out the criteria of what i think creates for yourself means and only one of those (the second) really qualify. for example the first, you don't see it in the video but a pick and roll has occurred and the heats have opted to put bosh on him. bosh isn't quick enough to cut off the penetration so he can only guide him towards the outside of the paint into lebron. more than anything it proves my contention that parker generally can't create unless there's some sort of mismatch created for him

although now I'm wondering if its that parker can't create unless there's a mismatch or if the spurs don't have parker attempt to create something without a mismatch. maybe a bit of both.
post #15734 of 27250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brothersport View Post

Crawford is overrated by the avg fan, and probably most GMs. You don't need shitty "shot creation" in the playoffs on a team w/ CP3 and Blake Griffin. I will miss his ridic jumpers but he doesn't make that team much better when everyone is healthy.

Jamal Crawford has shot <40% in the playoffs literally every year he's been in them. He's shot worse than he had in the reg season every year. The guy is 34 years old.

Crawford is universally known to be one of the worst defenders in the league.

One of the issues is his contract. I think Collison is on a minimum contract, or maybe just above minimum.
This. He was killing them the last few games against OKC with really terrible shot selection. Yes, jacking up ill-advised shots looks great when they go in, and it's easy to forget when he makes a "big" three that he threw away 3 of the last 5 possessions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

He maintained almost all his averages in the post season with fewer minutes. Rivers wouldn't have used him if he was really as awful as you portray him to be.
Straw man. Brothersport didn't say he's the worst player in the league, just that it's a spot at which the Clips can/should do better. Nobody's arguing that the Doc currently has a lot of better options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo_Version 7 View Post

I don't know if it was purely frustration but KD looked gassed towards the end of the game. And I'm guessing that finger to the eye of Diaw pleased a lot of Adams fans
He's having to work really hard on defense, and the fact that Ibaka is out and Westbrook has been less than spectacular the first two games means he has to work harder on offense as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

This was awesome, made me smile at the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post

In any job, you keep the best workers because they make you good. If you don't do that you have a mediocre organization. But hey Warriors are mediocre organization so it's hardly news.
Yes, but you have to decide what constitutes the "best workers". Sometimes you have people who are very talented or productive (or lucky) in certain areas that are more easily captured by metrics (wins, billable hours, etc.), but problematic in other areas (they don't follow the rules, they are assholes, they make life difficult for their co-workers, staff, and/or supervisors and thereby make others around them less productive and less satisfied). When you fire the assholes, they always bitch that they're just unpopular because everyone is jealous of their productivity. But when you are part of an organization that depends on many more people than just you, the way you function and interact with others inside that organization is often a critical part of job performance.
post #15735 of 27250
i still believe the top two players on OKC are more talented than the top 2 players on SAS, and I'll stick with that. but talent does not equal performance, it equals potential. parker's got great numbers, but i still think a lot of that comes from playing in a great system (this is not to take anything away from parker, he's brilliant at exploiting what the system gives him). It's more a slam on westbrook for not living up to what he could be doing. the guy has the physical ability to do almost anything, but he tries to do that almost every time down court. he's a terrible teammate.
and, yes, 1-2 OKC is more talented, but 1-8 it's all spurs. that bench is so deep. but i still think it's deep with role players who know the system and do exactly what they're supposed to do to make the system work. watching the playoffs, ive noticed how many times when sas needs a bailout shot at the end of the clock, they get it on a drive, not on a desperation jumper. by the time 24 seconds have passed, the defense is so spread and so switched that there are good shots available instead of hail marys.
to me, that's just beautiful, beautiful basketball, the way it's meant to be played.
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