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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread - Page 975

post #14611 of 27201
Quote:
Originally Posted by foodguy View Post

really interesting ideas.
i haven't done the statistical analysis (because i hate math), but as a guy who has been watching for a long time, I wonder how much of it is just the evolution of the modern center (did someone already make that argument?). you rarely see an old-school back-it-in low post offense these days. does this go back to the triangle? when even shaq -- maybe the best pounder-5 in recent times -- often initiated the offense from teh high post before going low? i don't remember even kareem - who was a really skilled big man for his time -- doing that.

you know in the 80's (houston/boston/LA) they all actually had super athletic freak bigmen. i think kevin mchale was probably the only true "black hole" type of big man.

parish/olijawan/kareem could all run the floor extremely well. ralph sampson was the freakiest of them all as a 7 foot point forward who could run the floor and guard like handle.

to swing it back to the 80's even the Bad Boy Pistons finally won when they traded Adrien Dantley (who was excellent at low post moves/scoring reminiscent of carmelo anthony, but clogged the offense and needed touches).
post #14612 of 27201
For some reason we just don't see guys come in who are built for the old school center mold. Right now, we have Al Jefferson and Zach Randolph who are straight up old school. LA probably is the next with the physical gifts + skills, but he's chosen to be a jump shooter/stretch. That's it.

Dwight doesn't count because he's been drilled as a post player for almost a decade and he's still a doof. Maybe Blake at some point can't dunk over people and decides to become a load in the post, or one of these stiffs like Kanter suddenly gets it together but they don't look super strong or particularly agile
post #14613 of 27201
Blake and Dwight do have a pretty good post game tho. Dwight is like a third of the rockets points and he gets like 60%

I loled at indesertum small

Also the nets right now are basically the Larry-Riley 6' 9" or taller (I think more like 6' 7"). No 1 turnover generating defense since January
post #14614 of 27201
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRoi View Post

For some reason we just don't see guys come in who are built for the old school center mold. Right now, we have Al Jefferson and Zach Randolph who are straight up old school. LA probably is the next with the physical gifts + skills, but he's chosen to be a jump shooter/stretch. That's it.

Dwight doesn't count because he's been drilled as a post player for almost a decade and he's still a doof. Maybe Blake at some point can't dunk over people and decides to become a load in the post, or one of these stiffs like Kanter suddenly gets it together but they don't look super strong or particularly agile

just watching 1min of this videos give's me giggles... its safe to say even with the modern analytic's based defensive schemes you couldn't stop McHale:

sometimes McHale even pivots right into multiple defenders, lol8[1].gif and its basically McHale vs 3 defenders and it still doesn't matter. Its all about his height, footwork, and timing.


^who probably benefited the most from emulating the big men of the 80's? Kobe Bryant, who co-opted the footwork and up and under moves, but modified it to where he'd create space for a mid range shot.

hell it seems like mostly wing players these days who are using the footwork and up and under moves: Paul Pierce, Joe Johnson (both old guys on their way out), James Harden ect. Carmelo sometimes will start with it, but he mostly pulls up instead of stepping inside for a easier shot.

Duncan is the last big man doing it, but there is hope in Anthony Davis, because he has such great footwork and already has great FT shooting %, and his ability to learn and apply what he learned I wouldn't be surprised if Unibrow averages 30pts next year using big man moves.
post #14615 of 27201
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRoi View Post

For some reason we just don't see guys come in who are built for the old school center mold. Right now, we have Al Jefferson and Zach Randolph who are straight up old school. LA probably is the next with the physical gifts + skills, but he's chosen to be a jump shooter/stretch. That's it.

Dwight doesn't count because he's been drilled as a post player for almost a decade and he's still a doof. Maybe Blake at some point can't dunk over people and decides to become a load in the post, or one of these stiffs like Kanter suddenly gets it together but they don't look super strong or particularly agile

You forgot Tim Duncan and David Lee (though he jump shoots a lot).

I think its what they're also being asked to do. David West can bang. Taj Gibson, Kenneth Faried, Anthony Davis all have the potential to develop those moves. Greg Monroe too. But if its not a valued skill set anymore, why bother to train with Hakeem in the summer?
post #14616 of 27201
Uh, Stoudamire's game is now 80% back to the basket. I know everyone has written him off, but he had a monster March/April, playing limited minutes in an offense that almost never featured him. He spent I think the last two summers with Hakeem.
post #14617 of 27201
Shit, I did forget about Tim Duncan. Amare, though? Maybe he'll get there but he's not effective enough to be in the convo yet. I do remember Barkley saying this when he learned Amare was working with Hakeem to develop a post game - "13 years in the league as a PF/C, and you're developing a post game just now?!" lol8[1].gif
post #14618 of 27201
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRoi View Post

Shit, I did forget about Tim Duncan. Amare, though? Maybe he'll get there but he's not effective enough to be in the convo yet. I do remember Barkley saying this when he learned Amare was working with Hakeem to develop a post game - "13 years in the league as a PF/C, and you're developing a post game just now?!" lol8[1].gif

yeah, but there's always been power forwards that had no post up game (Oakley, Mahorn, Buck Williams etc). I don't blame STATS, I blame D'Antoni, he would never allow a player to develop a low post game. Also, I think given current style preferences in basketball, any big 16-17 year old kid getting ready to go to Division 1 will be pushed into the stretch 4 mold rather than a Charles Barkley mold. STATS has developed a really effective low post game, when you think about the injury issues he's had, its admirable that he has improved his game rather than just stick with what he knew.
post #14619 of 27201
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

yeah, but there's always been power forwards that had no post up game (Oakley, Mahorn, Buck Williams etc). I don't blame STATS, I blame D'Antoni, he would never allow a player to develop a low post game. Also, I think given current style preferences in basketball, any big 16-17 year old kid getting ready to go to Division 1 will be pushed into the stretch 4 mold rather than a Charles Barkley mold. STATS has developed a really effective low post game, when you think about the injury issues he's had, its admirable that he has improved his game rather than just stick with what he knew.

Ya, this was sorta my point a few posts back, the trickle down here is for guys to develop in ways that are not necessarily their strengths. I think there is still plenty of room for post up ball in the NCAA but why would a blue chipper develop it if the NBA won't value it in workouts whey put the 6' 10" guy 20 feet out? If he starts clanging, smash cut to the middle of the 2nd round, or worse, the Greek league.

Strangely, it still seems valued when a 2 or 3 can back someone down, and Lebron seems to value it, but for the traditional post up play from a 4 and 5, its always claimed that it grinds the offense to a halt. I don't really recall the Hakeem years having offenses grind to a halt, nor does that happen with Duncan in SA. But fuck man, when Hibbert starts to post up, the whole game seems to turn into slow motion.

Curios, I'm no expert in the Triangle, but does it accommodate post up play? Or was Shaq an anomaly within it?
post #14620 of 27201
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

yeah, but there's always been power forwards that had no post up game (Oakley, Mahorn, Buck Williams etc). I don't blame STATS, I blame D'Antoni, he would never allow a player to develop a low post game. Also, I think given current style preferences in basketball, any big 16-17 year old kid getting ready to go to Division 1 will be pushed into the stretch 4 mold rather than a Charles Barkley mold. STATS has developed a really effective low post game, when you think about the injury issues he's had, its admirable that he has improved his game rather than just stick with what he knew.
Fair enough, and I agree. The development argument has always been a chicken and egg situation for me - do players adapt because of system, or vice versa? No denying stretch 4's are being drafted higher now (even those that can't rebound), but on the other side you have entire offenses being designed around the aforementioned Al Jefferson. Even more ironically, the Heat realized that their 3 was their best post up player, so they drew all of their bigs to the perimeter to create space.

I'm not too close to AAU and college coaching, so I don't have an informed opinion on this
post #14621 of 27201

they even gave him a glove to throw that from
post #14622 of 27201
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

Ya, this was sorta my point a few posts back, the trickle down here is for guys to develop in ways that are not necessarily their strengths. I think there is still plenty of room for post up ball in the NCAA but why would a blue chipper develop it if the NBA won't value it in workouts whey put the 6' 10" guy 20 feet out? If he starts clanging, smash cut to the middle of the 2nd round, or worse, the Greek league.

Strangely, it still seems valued when a 2 or 3 can back someone down, and Lebron seems to value it, but for the traditional post up play from a 4 and 5, its always claimed that it grinds the offense to a halt. I don't really recall the Hakeem years having offenses grind to a halt, nor does that happen with Duncan in SA. But fuck man, when Hibbert starts to post up, the whole game seems to turn into slow motion.

Curios, I'm no expert in the Triangle, but does it accommodate post up play? Or was Shaq an anomaly within it?

you should watch a rockets or a bobcats game. half their strategy is run plays designed to get the ball to dwight or big al deep in the block and let them go to work at it.

post game for centers is not dead. it's just not as prevalent

the triangle offense definitely has a lot of options for post play, but it's also great if you don't have a post person
post #14623 of 27201
Quote:
Originally Posted by LawrenceMD View Post

just watching 1min of this videos give's me giggles... its safe to say even with the modern analytic's based defensive schemes you couldn't stop McHale:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
sometimes McHale even pivots right into multiple defenders, lol8[1].gif and its basically McHale vs 3 defenders and it still doesn't matter. Its all about his height, footwork, and timing.


^who probably benefited the most from emulating the big men of the 80's? Kobe Bryant, who co-opted the footwork and up and under moves, but modified it to where he'd create space for a mid range shot.

hell it seems like mostly wing players these days who are using the footwork and up and under moves: Paul Pierce, Joe Johnson (both old guys on their way out), James Harden ect. Carmelo sometimes will start with it, but he mostly pulls up instead of stepping inside for a easier shot.

Duncan is the last big man doing it, but there is hope in Anthony Davis, because he has such great footwork and already has great FT shooting %, and his ability to learn and apply what he learned I wouldn't be surprised if Unibrow averages 30pts next year using big man moves.

thanks for posting - i enjoyed this. 60%ish of the video is the same fucking move. dont jump on the first pump fake!
Edited by NAMOR - 4/24/14 at 12:04pm
post #14624 of 27201
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

Ya, this was sorta my point a few posts back, the trickle down here is for guys to develop in ways that are not necessarily their strengths. I think there is still plenty of room for post up ball in the NCAA but why would a blue chipper develop it if the NBA won't value it in workouts whey put the 6' 10" guy 20 feet out? If he starts clanging, smash cut to the middle of the 2nd round, or worse, the Greek league.

Strangely, it still seems valued when a 2 or 3 can back someone down, and Lebron seems to value it, but for the traditional post up play from a 4 and 5, its always claimed that it grinds the offense to a halt. I don't really recall the Hakeem years having offenses grind to a halt, nor does that happen with Duncan in SA. But fuck man, when Hibbert starts to post up, the whole game seems to turn into slow motion.

Curios, I'm no expert in the Triangle, but does it accommodate post up play? Or was Shaq an anomaly within it?

The triangle is perfect for a strong back to the basket player teamed up with a shooter. And also works great for a big with a mid range game (and post up moves). So I'm excited for teh Knicks because I think Carmelo/Stat even Bargnani are tailor made to suceed in the trinagle.
post #14625 of 27201
Ed, please don't tell me you're getting suckered by Bargnani. That's not going to end well
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