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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread - Page 941

post #14101 of 27206
the guy the rockets should've been going for this year is brandon bass. he's the perfect stretch 4 to stick 18ft away on the elbows/baseline. plus he'd come cheap since the celtics were in full tank mode (so maybe just a salary swap and a 2nd rounder) anyway and would salivate at the chance to dump even more salary.

i listened to the simmons-nash podcast and here's my semi bigoted take:

since nash is eloquent, soft spoken (literally softer voice with smooth delivery), and canadian happy.gif he naturally can be more candid without too many ramifications.

so sure he can say things like he wants to get paid while rehabbing, be with his children, live in beautiful manhattan beach (while walking his cute pit bull mix in the morning), gun for a ring (when they theoretically had a super team with howard/pau/kobe/nash) and people will mostly nod their heads in agreement.

but someone like jeremy lin is just hated on for taking that huge 15million last year on his three year contract, even melo described it as "ridiculous" , and you have Stephen A. Smith ranting about how the knicks are doing the right thing because they're being financially responsible for a change ect ect... (i fucking hate that jock sniffer when he starts pandering to the feeble minded).

maybe i'm just rambling, but I bet any competent front office other than the one in place on the knicks would've just resigned lin and made it work, because that last year becomes an expiring 15mill dollar contract and actually valuable for trading for a near max player (hello lebron/cp3/love/ect ) and would've convinced melo to stop being a hater/jealous because lin becomes a valuable trade asset on year 3.
post #14102 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

i disagree. there's 4 or 5 very efficient guys. the rest of league is pretty bad at it, isn't improving much if at all, and it is well worth giving up those shots. but those 4 or 5 guys really wreck havoc on said system

33% 3fgp is worth the same as a 50% 2fgp. for this season league average 2fgp is 48.5% where as 3fgp is 36%. clearly still not enough 3s are being shot and too many 2s are shot

kobe basically made a living last season being a midrange specialist. i have a feeling he went the extra mile, maybe with the help of his own in house/lakers analytics, showed him that the modern defenses were going to give the 18-22footers to him.
post #14103 of 27206
all these metrics/analytical tools have fucked up basketball.
post #14104 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

all these metrics/analytical tools have fucked up basketball.

Careful with that Ed... the Fact Check Mafia is around.

I agree with you to a large extent. We've made large analytical strides towards a homogenized form of basketball. The transition is not complete but its getting there. Teams are targeting a model with a group of players which the math specifies as ideal. Now everyone needs a stretch 4, so a Reggie Evans type guy is marginalized. Eventually that idealization will make teams look more or less the same. Or dare I say boring?
post #14105 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by LawrenceMD View Post

but someone like jeremy lin is just hated on for taking that huge 15million last year on his three year contract, even melo described it as "ridiculous" , and you have Stephen A. Smith ranting about how the knicks are doing the right thing because they're being financially responsible for a change ect ect... (i fucking hate that jock sniffer when he starts pandering to the feeble minded).

maybe i'm just rambling, but I bet any competent front office other than the one in place on the knicks would've just resigned lin and made it work, because that last year becomes an expiring 15mill dollar contract and actually valuable for trading for a near max player (hello lebron/cp3/love/ect ) and would've convinced melo to stop being a hater/jealous because lin becomes a valuable trade asset on year 3.
I didn't realize that Lin got a lot of hate for that contract - maybe I wasn't paying attention. What, do people think he didnt play his way into those $$ numbers the year before? Or he should have given the Knicks a hometown discount? Maybe they forget that that same front office jerked him around before and after he signed the Rockets' tender.
post #14106 of 27206
a lot of knicks fans got super racist calling him a chink or a yellow nigger or what have you. the fun fact is knicks never even offered him a contract

i don't think knicks could have asked a hometown discount. one he's not from there. two they had to match rockets contract to keep him

the thing is i think both teams would have been better off had the knicks matched the offer
Quote:
Originally Posted by diadem View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Postthe rockets are missing a stretch 4 (which they don't really have. if only asik could shoot greater than 5 feet away from the rim)

 


The Rockets can get away with sticking Parsons at the 4-spot. He's the size of a power forward anyway at 6'10".

he doesn't have a post game tho. so they can't run sets that are designed to just get him in the block

i guess they can get away with it but its not optimal and probably a temporary situation

Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

all these metrics/analytical tools have fucked up basketball.

basketball constantly evolves tho. everybody always wishes basketball was like when they were growing up. they said the same thing about the defensive 3 second violation, the addition of the 3 point line, removal of hand checking, etc

i find these modern teams more fun to watch. its more about basketball skills, craftiness, and athleticism than it is about street wrestling

and in regards to the homogeneity argument: not all teams follow or will follow the metrics because the old guard doesn't really believe in it. if you want that old school tough defense team watch the pacers or the bulls. they follow modern defense but don't have the tools or will to do modern offense
post #14107 of 27206
spurs are once again on top of the western conference. with three ancients running the same things they've been doing for the past 10 years

i like how teams know what's going on so they try to evade screens or don't bother chasing him around but it ends up with good looks for the spurs. i think its also crazy how parker can attack even with three defenders on him and create looks

kawhi is a top 8 player ever since he got back from the break. he was pretty bad earlier in the season

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/let-them-entertain-you-the-beautiful-late-season-spurs-surge/



man i don't know how i will feel if i see the same nba finals as last year
post #14108 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

if you want that old school tough defense team watch the pacers or the bulls. they follow modern defense but don't have the tools or will to do modern offense

Always fun to see an old-school tough defense take down an offensive juggernaut like the Heat, Thunder, etc. but again, that comes down to preference

Out of curiosity, where do you place the Spurs as far defensive/offensive schemes??

EDIT:

lol8[1].gif I don't know how you predicted I would ask about the Spurs wtf
post #14109 of 27206
they're league best if you go by scoring margin. even including the earlier down period


and seriously if you watch a game they run the same shit they've always run. i don't understand with all the analytics and tape breaking how nobody is still good at dealing with the spurs
post #14110 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

Careful with that Ed... the Fact Check Mafia is around.

You're not getting it. Fact Check Mafia objects when you make false factual assertions. What conclusions can or cannot be drawn from actual facts is a separate issue.

Others have made a similar point in different ways, but I think the suggestion that just looking at points yielded per 3-pt shot vs. points yielded per two-point shot should be determinative of what a team's shooting mix should be is overstated. These shots don't occur in a vacuum. The threat of a dead-eye 3-point shooter, an efficient post-up scorer, or a relentless driver to the rim changes the way the defense has to play, and thereby affects the ability of other offensive players to get good scoring opportunities. One negative example of this would be the way teams have always felt they could play off Rondo because they weren't worried that he would hurt them with open 3's. Obviously, there are other metrics that can shed light on some of this, but the game is still more fluid and dynamic than a straight-up statistical analysis of which shots are most "efficient" would suggest.
post #14111 of 27206
yeah rondo and rubio and kendall marshall

although rubio somehow is now a 46% shooter

they're all still a net positive for their teams tho. offense and defense


i think kendall marshall could be the next nate macmillan. occasionally produce 9 points 25 assists 7 steals type of line
post #14112 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

and seriously if you watch a game they run the same shit they've always run. i don't understand with all the analytics and tape breaking how nobody is still good at dealing with the spurs
this, essentially, is the achilles heel of metrics. they can help you predict, but you still have to come up with a system for beating it. analytics can predict that the spurs will drive, kick and pass, but when they move the ball the way they do, it's almost unstoppable. I love watching the Spurs (hi stevie! miss you! mwah!) because they play just about perfect basketball. not all the time and not every game, but they're fundamentally solid and understand exactly who they are and what they can do.
post #14113 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

We've made large analytical strides towards a homogenized form of basketball. 

 

Why does truth or arriving at the truth frigthen people so much? So many reactionary fogies have this same attitude (Karl Rove) and it is just silly. The world is incredibly complex but at the same time simple. Deal with it.

post #14114 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by EMartNJ View Post

Why does truth or arriving at the truth frigthen people so much? So many reactionary fogies have this same attitude (Karl Rove) and it is just silly. The world is incredibly complex but at the same time simple. Deal with it.

I'm afraid of a guy on Bath Salts with a machete in a public bathroom, this is a bunch of tall boys running around. I just have a preference to see 32 distinct teams with distinct styles so that there is a clash rather than mostly canceling each other out. If this is the way the game is evolving, fine. It just means I may not watch as much as it becomes boring. Perhaps something new and exciting will spring up, who knows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerdad View Post

Others have made a similar point in different ways, but I think the suggestion that just looking at points yielded per 3-pt shot vs. points yielded per two-point shot should be determinative of what a team's shooting mix should be is overstated. These shots don't occur in a vacuum. The threat of a dead-eye 3-point shooter, an efficient post-up scorer, or a relentless driver to the rim changes the way the defense has to play, and thereby affects the ability of other offensive players to get good scoring opportunities. One negative example of this would be the way teams have always felt they could play off Rondo because they weren't worried that he would hurt them with open 3's. Obviously, there are other metrics that can shed light on some of this, but the game is still more fluid and dynamic than a straight-up statistical analysis of which shots are most "efficient" would suggest.

Ya, there is a lot of nuance in the game that statistical analysis can't account for. Baseball is better suited for this stuff. But teams are doing it and succeeding... Mavs used it to win against Miami. The old school won't last long. It didn't in baseball. Colleges and even High Schools are wading in. Eventually players will expect the analytics side to be there, even rely on it (gasp).

To my point above, the game is more fun for me to watch when you have distinct styles clashing so I hope the trend towards homogenization stops.
post #14115 of 27206
i don't think nba will ever homogenize and it really hasn't. there's like 4, 5 teams that are really into the metrics but the rest are just kinda meh. they use some of it but don't commit whole heartedly
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