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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread - Page 929

post #13921 of 27247
I thought this thread was about NBA basketball.

And the Rockets are finally good again satisfied.gif
post #13922 of 27247
^^^ It is, and I apologize in advance for the length of this, but the way members are treated in this thread needs addressing.
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Indesertum, since you presented some substance, I’ll dissect your post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

nobody has made the same outrageous claims as you have

Oh really?? This is one month old:

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Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

I'll take this one step forward. I hate the new NBA high octane offenses. I'm not impressed with all these teams averaging +100 a game (or per 100 possessions). How entertaining is it to see these hyper athletic, talented guys score so much when basically no defense is being played (or allowed by the league anymore). Give me a 90's Knicks/Bulls 82-80 game, that to me is impressive. Having the will, desire and ability to hold the other team to 80 points. You want to see lots of high flying scoring, go see the Harlem Globetrotters.
To my point about social status… why wasn’t this post questioned? I know why. Clearly this post is in line with my comments. I wonder why I was attacked and this well regarded member wasn’t? There are more like this that were never Mafia’d like I was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

scoring averages declined from '93 to '98. then it increases until '09 and then it decreases until '12, but clearly every single year has had a lower scoring average since '93
I have to be careful around the Fact Check Mafia. I thought the hand check was banned in the mid 90’s. If you look here, scoring has been on the rise since around ’00 which is when hand checking was actually banned. Objectively you see the trend line clearly moving up. So, in fact, scoring has steadily been on the rise, and yes, an argument can be made its getting easier and easier.





Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

you made a trollish statement about lebron actually being terrible because scoring is easy nowadays.
Someone commented on how incredible LeBron’s performance was. I disagreed. Neither party was trolling. I never said LeBron was terrible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

and on the contrary people actually did say "i don't agree scoring is not easier" by bringing up some statistics to show that it's actually not easier
And that’s when I clarified so people understood it LOOKED easier. Had anyone shown respect, they would have said “oh, I get what he’s saying now”.

Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

wtf is this shit. two people literally tell you people aren't dogging on you because of social standing but because your arguments are terrible and instead of trying to understand why they think your arguments are terrible you go on about some honestly unbelievably retarded conspiracy theory that everybody here is out to get you because they hate you.
Calm the hyperbole. It’s not a conspiracy, it’s Lord of the Flies in practice. Look at the posts above which garnered no push-back and compare it to my treatment. My point is proven.

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Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

i really don't give a fuck about SF social standing. and it looks like even if i made the claim you think i made the claim because i think the exact opposite. i actually quite like literally everybody here (even the trolls that populate SF, douchebags like jet, and argumentative assholes like you and why)
I have nothing against you or anyone on this thread save for Neo and Jet who dog me with every post I make. Look how stupid Neo looks above. I’m rather curious how that outing will be received, because its clear evidence he has no interest in the quality of this thread, just his social standing within it by targeting me.

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Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

THERE IS NO FUCKING SF SOCIAL STANDING.

You’re dead wrong, though this is not the thread to debate it.

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Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

one of my proofs for this was that you actually have high social standing in the online dating thread

Do I now? This post was directed at me from one of the elites on this forum. He just loves keeping people squashed. I might have in fact developed social standing in that thread if it were not for this members endless harassment of me there. But perhaps you experience it differently. I don't take him personally, because I know he's just a bully.
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Originally Posted by Bhowie View Post

You are such a whiney cunt.

Edited by idfnl - 3/8/14 at 2:57pm
post #13923 of 27247
Hipocratic
post #13924 of 27247
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Originally Posted by NorCal View Post

IN short, fuck LeBron and his bitch face. Nothingmore needs to be said.
this

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Originally Posted by rnoldh View Post

I thought this thread was about NBA basketball.
and this. jfc.
post #13925 of 27247
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

^^^ It is, and I apologize in advance for the length of this, but the way members are treated in this thread needs addressing.
_________


Indesertum, since you presented some substance, I’ll dissect your post.
Oh really?? This is one month old:
To my point about social status… why wasn’t this post questioned? I know why. Clearly this post is in line with my comments. I wonder why I was attacked and this well regarded member wasn’t? There are more like this that were never Mafia’d like I was.

NBA is clearly now more high octane offense. That still isn't the same as your outrageous statement about lebron's efficiency actually being terrible (playground like or whatever you said) because of the more high octane offense.

clearly some of us (ed and lawrence and you) think the old days were better, but nobody has made the unbelievable claims you have
Quote:
I have to be careful around the Fact Check Mafia. I thought the hand check was banned in the mid 90’s. If you look here, scoring has been on the rise since around ’00 which is when hand checking was actually banned. Objectively you see the trend line clearly moving up. So, in fact, scoring has steadily been on the rise, and yes, an argument can be made its getting easier and easier.



you've just said exactly what i said in the post you quoted. yes scoring's been on the rise since since '98 to 2009 but YOUR ORIGINAL POST SAID SCORING"S BEEN ON THE RISE SINCE '93 WHICH IS BLATANTLY FALSE. 1993 and 1998 are different years. they're different numbers

here's your same chart with an arrow from 1993 to 2012



clearly downwards

why're you constantly changing things so it makes it seems like you've always been right?

just so you know scoring averages have declined since 2009 and nba offenses have been much more high octane now than in 2009. in 2009 you didn't have go go 3 balls like we have today. in 2009 nobody was complaining nba offense was too high octane.
Quote:
Someone commented on how incredible LeBron’s performance was. I disagreed. Neither party was trolling. I never said LeBron was terrible.
And that’s when I clarified so people understood it LOOKED easier. Had anyone shown respect, they would have said “oh, I get what he’s saying now”.

it's not about respect. you made two totally different statements. the first was lebron's efficiency is terrible. the second was lebron's efficiency looks to me like it's terrible. those are two totally different statements. the first you presented as an objective assertion. the second is a subjective opinion. it's not simply a clarification. you totally moved the goal posts
Quote:
Calm the hyperbole. It’s not a conspiracy, it’s Lord of the Flies in practice. Look at the posts above which garnered no push-back and compare it to my treatment. My point is proven.
I have nothing against you or anyone on this thread save for Neo and Jet who dog me with every post I make. Look how stupid Neo looks above. I’m rather curious how that outing will be received, because its clear evidence he has no interest in the quality of this thread, just his social standing within it by targeting me.
You’re dead wrong, though this is not the thread to debate it.

like i said nobody goes to the extreme of making the statements you make with little evidence to prove it. ed said that the nba has more high octane offense (which is true. there's a ton more threes and if you look at teams like the phoenix suns and houston rockets they're very go go push the ball up). your claim is basically that the nba offense is so high octane that lebron's scoring efficiency is actually terrible even when he gets like 60% fgp against the league best defense pacers.

it's not because ed has better standing and you don't. it's because nobody quite makes contrarian statements like you and have little evidence for it
Quote:
Do I now? This post was directed at me from one of the elites on this forum. He just loves keeping people squashed. I might have in fact developed social standing in that thread if it were not for this members endless harassment of me there. But perhaps you experience it differently. I don't take him personally, because I know he's just a bully.

and you shouldn't take him personally. that's just his schtick. he's a dick to everybody and he calls it like he sees it.
post #13926 of 27247
I don't think the past NBA is better than today game. I hated those 90's knicks teams that manhandled jordan.

but its weird how younger generations can make assumptions that this present league is more athletic than the past. and how the "modern" game is superior. i'm nearing my mid 30's so I still had a chance to see bird/magic/thomas play towards the mid-late 80's (granted I was little, but my dad and I watched both the celtics when we lived in rhode island and boston and a lot of the lakers when we moved to orange county CA in the late 80's). i was in my teens and 20's into the jordan/duncan/kobe era, and now can totally appreciate the modern game (because of all around stars like Lebron - which is so refreshing compared to ball dominant score first 2 guards that dominated for two generations of jordan and kobe).

sure if a game is in its infancy like 10 caucasian guys doing two handed set shots towards a peach basket there's going to be a large gap. but the NBA (just like the MLB and boxing) has had its modernization relatively early and progress has been incremental as integration of other races and nations players have filter into the game.

by the late 1970's the NBA game pretty much turned into what you see today. its hard to admit, and I didn't even believe it until i did some review of past games from the late 70's. but these guys ran just as fast and jumped just as high. the dunks were fewer because honestly you could be put on your back for trying to dunk even up to the 90's. i don't think lebron and blake griffin would be doing alley oops as much if lets say rick mahorn could just slam you onto the ground and not even be ejected for it.


here's a breakdown of the 1977 finals between the blazers and 76ers:

fast forward to the 2:15 mark and you can see these players are just as fast and play up tempo just as much as todays game.


go to 2:15 to see Dr. J do a dunk running at full speed and contested that would melt the inter webs if done today

go to 2:37 to see an even better Dr. j dunk contested and in transition


the way the blazers played reminds me a lot of the spurs teams - especially last years spurs team. where they have a center (duncan) who is basically an anchor because of his all around game - passing, scoring, defense, and spacing. make no mistake, the plays the blazers are executing are the highest level of basketball. things that are still done today (some would argue not as effectively too).

I don't think I'm crazy to think that that 1977 blazers team could compete in today's nba. just like the 86 celtics or 87 lakers, or 1990 pistons, or any of the 90's jordan teams could.

its like track and field. sure jessie owens is probably "slower" compared to modern runners in the 100m. but only marginally incrementally so. if you put usain bolt back in the past using leather cleats running on sandy asphalt, or transported jessie owens to present day and trained him properly with modern techniques and used modern kits the differences would be marginal.

what I do think is happening is that the analytics are making todays game and near future teams more efficient. and the application of the modern analytics are going make another mini-leap in the game, kind of like what happened to baseball in the late 90's to today.

it really started to happen in the 2011 finals where cuban/carlise and company used advanced analytics(and the heat's insistence not to adjust) to win the finals against that miami super team. miami has adjusted accordingly afterwards and won in 2012, 2013 no doubt because they jumped onto the analytic bandwagon (they clearly are using the stats now).

so the new leap for nba players with the use of analytics? how about players like steph curry? steve nash-like on the surface, but with even deeper shooting range, not afraid to take contested 3pt shots from 27feet (because of his quick release it looks more contested than it actually is), where curry can have a line of 30+ pts, 5 3pt shots, and also have 10+ assists. so how to teams like the warriors compete? by using billy bean like angles in figuring out how to play defense with stiffs like david lee and curry. lol

so probably in the next 3-10 years there's going to be a true leap in team play with the integration of analytics and importance of NBA front offices.
post #13927 of 27247
Lawrence, when you brought up the 2011 Mavs (personally one of my fav teams to have watched), it reminded me of the time Mark Cuban went on ESPN and basically explained the analytics approach he used to the dumbfounded Skip Bayless. laugh.gif
post #13928 of 27247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo_Version 7 View Post

Lawrence, when you brought up the 2011 Mavs (personally one of my fav teams to have watched), it reminded me of the time Mark Cuban went on ESPN and basically explained the analytics approach he used to the dumbfounded Skip Bayless. laugh.gif

whats sad is how stephen A smith's excuse for not covering the analytics angle of the 2011 finals was: I'm really busy and don't have time to look up all the numbers!

what the fuck you lazy bastard. just fucking click true hoop on your own motherfucking espn website and they will give you the analytics slant in 3 seconds. or how about calling up the guys from true hoop who are your fucking co-workers and asking for some help.

if the fucking owner/GM/coachingstaff and players of the mavericks can study and understand the numbers and still give interviews to the media then talking heads can spend 10min to learn the basics and just take the ignorance stance against analytics.

bayless is paid to be a jackass and be deliberately argumentative, so he's just doing work, its stephen a. smith that tries to be the booming voice of reason - which is so fucking baseless if you don't include the analytics angle into account.
post #13929 of 27247
about fast paced older teams

jeff hornacek (head coach of the suns) was talking about how he devised the current suns to be similar to the old phoenix (http://www.nba.com/suns/news/bledsoe-dragic-proving-lethal-fast-break-game). not the d'antoni phoenix but the suns when him and kevin johnson were playing dual point guards in a go go style similar to what the suns are doing today. they relied a lot on fast breaks and pushing up the ball quickly, but with less 3s (as typical of the era). i watched what i could find on youtube and it was actually quite fun

anyways i was too young to even watch a jordan game live. i think i caught the tail end of his career with the wizards.

the suns might be the funnest team to watch right now alongside the blazers and the warriors

i've watched that video like 5 times now and every time it amazes me how much bullshitting the two idiots can go on about
Edited by indesertum - 3/8/14 at 11:45pm
post #13930 of 27247
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

clearly some of us (ed and lawrence and you) think the old days were better, but nobody has made the unbelievable claims you have
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Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

How entertaining is it to see these hyper athletic, talented guys score so much when basically no defense is being played (or allowed by the league anymore).
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Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

The rules have gotten out of hand. Scoring is just too easy now.
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Originally Posted by HRoi View Post

You really don't think defensive efficiency is better now than it was before?

One man's unbelievable claim is another man's social standing. I was scrutinized for basically saying the same thing as Ed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

just so you know scoring averages have declined since 2009

False. Scoring so far this season (as of yesterday) is higher than 2009 at 100.8 PPG. And anyone can see by that graph that since hand check was outlawed the trend is up. If we add this season to that graph, the upward trend is further emphasized. Clearly upward trend:




Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

your claim is basically that the nba offense is so high octane that lebron's scoring efficiency is actually terrible

I never said it was terrible. I said it was too easy/practice court:
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

His 22-33 is not efficiency, they're practice court fluff stats.


Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

it's not because ed has better standing and you don't. it's because nobody quite makes contrarian statements like you and have little evidence for it

This is what I said:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

"Rules" is a loose term. Some are unwritten. Some rules blatantly ignored.

Star treatment #1 - defenders get called early and often on stars (the Raja Bell treatment). #2, starts almost never get called for fouls... didn't LJ go 6 entire games last season without committing a foul? The net result being they always get their minutes and thus always get their numbers.

A walk being 4 steps now. Touch fouls everywhere (all contact now is basically a foul). Hand checking outlawed. The rule changes around charging under the basket. There is plenty more.
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Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

The games are now an exercise in marketing and branding which cannot be represented in your list of scoring averages. And I don't seem to be the only one to identify this trend of boring, yet high scoring and close games which generate highlight reels for ESPN.


This is what Ed said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

How entertaining is it to see these hyper athletic, talented guys score so much when basically no defense is being played (or allowed by the league anymore).

I fail to understand how anyone would characterize us as saying 2 completely different things. Yet one member gets scrutiny from the Fact Check Mafia and the other does not.

I've made a clearly reasoned argument that some members get more scrutiny here than others, are trolled, fact checked, not given bandwidth for clarification, and climbed all over for petty perfect wording violations. These tactics are for the purposes of emphasizing their own social standing and enforcing a childish social pecking order rather than create camaraderie among people that share a common interest in the NBA.

For the sake of everyone here that doesn't want to read any more of this boring shit, I won't respond any further on this issue. Indesertum, thanks for being respectful.
Edited by idfnl - 3/9/14 at 6:28am
post #13931 of 27247
Quote:
Originally Posted by LawrenceMD View Post

I don't think the past NBA is better than today game. I hated those 90's knicks teams that manhandled jordan.

but its weird how younger generations can make assumptions that this present league is more athletic than the past. ....

I like this post and mostly agree but

  • Basketball players are definitely a lot biffer, than they were 30 years ago. I bet the average guy on the Miami Heat spends more time in the weight room than all of the 77 Blazers combined (including Maurice Lucas).
  • The stuff about people getting hammered for dunking is more the 60s than the 80s. There were plenty of dunks in the era of Clyde Drexler and Dominique Wilkins.
  • Defense wasnt that physical in the 80s, at least until the era of the Pistons which was why scoring was so high. My recollection is that fans really enjoyed physical D at the outset (and MJ was himself a very physical defender). The problem came when it got so that the every team was running isolation plays everytime down the court just to get some space.
  • Scoring is still low because of zone defenses. I like it more than 90s ball, because teams have to pass a lot to beat the zone and you can get some pretty stuff if they succeed. But the 80s might have been more fun.
post #13932 of 27247
The analytics movement has also had a profound effect on the defensive side of the ball, which is why defensive efficiency is up around the league, and the great offensive analytics teams like the Mavs, Rockets, Spurs and Heat aren't just scoring on teams at will. For every Morey on the offensive side, there's a Thibodeau or Doc Rivers on the defensive side (to be fair, Morey is more than capable on the defensive analytic side as well). Steve Clifford, the Bobcats rookie coach that gave up Lebron's 61 point game, took his team from worst in the league to seventh in defensive efficiency.

In response to Larry's point, I'm not ready to say that today's teams are better than those of 20 years ago, but I do think they're definitely smarter
post #13933 of 27247
Quote:
Originally Posted by LawrenceMD View Post

whats sad is how stephen A smith's excuse for not covering the analytics angle of the 2011 finals was: I'm really busy and don't have time to look up all the numbers!

I think the same thing happened to them that happened to me: they were shocked at how well informed Mark Cuban was. That interview completely changed my views on him, I was impressed.
post #13934 of 27247
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post



One man's unbelievable claim is another man's social standing. I was scrutinized for basically saying the same thing as Ed.

False. Scoring so far this season (as of yesterday) is higher than 2009 at 100.8 PPG. And anyone can see by that graph that since hand check was outlawed the trend is up. If we add this season to that graph, the upward trend is further emphasized. Clearly upward trend:



I never said it was terrible. I said it was too easy/practice court:
This is what I said:
This is what Ed said:
I fail to understand how anyone would characterize us as saying 2 completely different things. Yet one member gets scrutiny from the Fact Check Mafia and the other does not.

I've made a clearly reasoned argument that some members get more scrutiny here than others, are trolled, fact checked, not given bandwidth for clarification, and climbed all over for petty perfect wording violations. These tactics are for the purposes of emphasizing their own social standing and enforcing a childish social pecking order rather than create camaraderie among people that share a common interest in the NBA.

For the sake of everyone here that doesn't want to read any more of this boring shit, I won't respond any further on this issue. Indesertum, thanks for being respectful.

look nobody came down on you or gave you shit when you said that guys score a lot these days because not a lot of teams play good defense

people came down on you when you said lebron's 22-23 isn't efficiency. there's a difference in those two statements. the latter is much more extreme than the former. how is this so difficult to understand


i don't understand how an intelligent person can be so selectively blind. i even drew an arrow on the graph for you

this is what you confidently said
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

Although, now that the list is there, you can see a clear trend upwards in scoring from '93 on.

in fact you were so confident you said it twice
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

After the Fact Check Mafia jumped in, I'd noted scoring averages were on the rise since '93. .

and then people pointed out that actually no that's not true

this is what you changed your statement to
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

If you look here, scoring has been on the rise since around ’00

you didn't even mention hand checking until somebody pointed that out

do you understand that there is a difference between the numbers '93 and '00? that's a seven year difference. you made two totally separate claims (which i had already pre-empted earlier in the quote you quoted yourself
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post


scoring averages declined from '93 to '98. then it increases until '09 and then it decreases until '12, but clearly every single year has had a lower scoring average since '93
post #13935 of 27247
Great game. Almost as good as when the Bulls broke the Heat streak last year
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