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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread - Page 890

post #13336 of 27825
Thread Starter 
I was gon say that too, to watch him on ESPN now and see how much he has improved but it is against the Lakers so... lol8[1].gif

But seriously, watch him and tell me he isn't one of the best PF in the game today. Dude is doing everything when he is on the court.
post #13337 of 27825
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo_Version 7 View Post

What little respect I had for RiRi evaporated when I saw her cry for the wrap-around on James

James, unsurprisingly like a douche, totally overreacted as if he were personally offended. Even though just by the stupid appellation I know I'll be sorry I asked.. "who the fuck is RiRi?"
post #13338 of 27825
Mirza Telatovic? Didn't watch the game so not sure what neo meant by his comment
post #13339 of 27825
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

First of all, I did not say Griffins ft is the sole reason why he is better then Nowitzi, Dirk is simply on his way down, simple as that and he isn't a true PF.


And are you really saying Millsap is better than Griffin?


And yeah my fault about Dirk being a natural 3, I was in a hurry earlier but he isn't a prototypical 4. And yes a tweener like Lebron and Dirk are better overall but the discussion is 4 position. See what you wrote below. But again, no one is ranking or picking Dirk before Blake this year, it is as easy as that.


At the end of the day, this is what you wrote:
Yet you provided one legit PF, Millsap and it isn't even a question that Griffin is better than him.

You want stats though, here's some: In January alone, Millsap averaged 12/8/3 n 24% shooting, while Griffin is at 24/9/4 (you can even round those up to 24/10/5) in 53% shooting. The difference is astounding and the 0.3blk and 0.3stl more he gets isn't enough to offset that.

This season, Griffin is at 22/10/3 at 52fg% and 70ft%, Millsap is at 17/8/2 (can be rounded up 17/9/3 just to be fair) with 46fg% and 73ft%.

Now, tell me Millsap is better?



As for Melo and Nowitzki, I'll say it for the last time, PF isn't their natural position. But again, look at the fantasy ranking for forwards and Griffin got them beat. Who gives a damn how they do their ranking, it can be a panel of analysts and sportscasters or some algorithm that gives them a per, whatever but at the end of the day Griffin tops those guys and that is still proof that Griffin is better in those analysts/sportcasters/writers mind.

Just because it disproves your point doesn't mean you can just shrug it off and say "I don't know how they do their ranking" and make them invalid. lol8[1].gif

cbs and espn rankings are bullshit. first off ESPN and cbs doesn't count turnovers. Griffin has a standard deviation more turnovers than millsap. second, you don't even know how they rank their players. how you going to turn around and tell me espn is the end all of rankings and you dont even know how they calculate their rankings? you say just trust the analysts, but you're the one who told me some analysts believe howard is the best center in the nba

espn uses standardized scoring for their current season rankings. one problem for standardized scoring is that the ends of the spectrum are way overvalued. one of the assumptions of standardized scoring is that the data is normalized, which NBA stats are not. you have to account for skew, which espn does not. espn also simply adds the z-scores for each category, which just amplifies the problem. so pretty much anybody at the end of the spectrum is going to get a big bump in rankings.

in other words somebody who is a specialist will tend to do better than somebody who does a little bit of everything in the espn rankings (ie griffin vs millsap)

at least, that's as far as we know. it looks like espn does some adjustments to their stats, but nobody really knows how because they never really say.




melo and nowitzki aren't natural PFs?

lol8[1].giflol8[1].giflol8[1].giflol8[1].giflol8[1].giflol8[1].giflol8[1].giflol8[1].giflol8[1].giflol8[1].gif

melo spent 48% of the team's total minutes at the 4 last season (compared to 8% at the 3) and had a better PER ranking at the four than at the 3. (http://www.82games.com/1213/12NYK11.HTM)
nowitzki played 39% at the 4 and 1% at the 5.

wtf are you talking about?

if you're going to argue melo and nowitzki aren't natural PFs then how're you going to argue griffin is a natural PF when he spent more time (% of the total team minutes) at the 5 than nowitzki did (http://www.82games.com/1213/12LAC13.HTM)



i've already said this point but you havent addressed it yet. how're you going to eliminate any player who plays other positions than the four? i said player at the four. this doesnt meant players only at the four. notice how i never wrote only. you say natural power forward, but according to who? you? if anything millsap is the only pure 4 among the players we're talking about.

you can't just look at raw statistics because 1 point isn't the same thing as 1 block or 1 steal or 1 three. also you're just limiting the categories we're looking at to categories griffin is good at (namely rebounds, points, and fgp). millsap is pretty close to griffin in all the stats you mentioned and is a full standard deviation higher in steals and threes and ftp and half a standard deviation higher in blocks and turnovers.

this is taken from basketball monster using 9 cats. they use standardized scoring, they adjust for categorical and positional skew, and their player values undergo the same treatment as their categorical scores.

post #13340 of 27825
Thread Starter 
I mean I get it that they can play the 4 but then Lebron could be put in all 5 positions because he plays all at some point in his career? Discussion is a 4 position and PFs only, those that are mainly that position. When you think of PFs, you do not think of Lebron or Davis or Horford. I mean right there Dirk played 1% at center, does that mean he is a center?

Griffin playing more center in his career isn't exactly accurate, VDN hated playing Jordan cuz he can't shoot ft and when odom was in the team, he guarded the center more often than Griffin. This year, he plays a lot more PF because Doc actually plays DJ. And playing 15% as a center dismisses him as PF now?

And according to that list, Young, Hawes, Anderson and Cousins are better than Blake? I mean what about being a damn idiot like Cousins, that simply doesn't show on the stat sheet? That is obviously his downfall and will hold him back like Bynum but that is null, right? But you'd take those guys over Blake, right? Because of stats.

I never said ESPN ranking is the end of it all, you just simply do not want to address them because it disproves your point. But whatever.

At this point we are just going in circles and come to no end.



At the end of the day...
Quote:
Melo probably wouldn't even make my list of this years top 10.

Lebron, CP3, Durant, Westbrook, Lillard, Aldridge, Curry, George, Love, Parker, Griffin, Harden, Davis, etc...

It was my list! Before you twist it around and put words in my mouth again, no I am not saying at is the sole list that should be followed and it isn't the end all of all rankings. Simply my list and my opinion you chose to argue against.

List your top rankings players and be done with this discussion because my opinion doesn't seem valid enough for me to have.
post #13341 of 27825
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

I mean I get it that they can play the 4 but then Lebron could be put in all 5 positions because he plays all at some point in his career? Discussion is a 4 position and PFs only, those that are mainly that position. When you think of PFs, you do not think of Lebron or Davis or Horford. I mean right there Dirk played 1% at center, does that mean he is a center?

Griffin playing more center in his career isn't exactly accurate, VDN hated playing Jordan cuz he can't shoot ft and when odom was in the team, he guarded the center more often than Griffin. This year, he plays a lot more PF because Doc actually plays DJ. And playing 15% as a center dismisses him as PF now?

I never said ESPN ranking is the end of it all, you just simply do not want to address them because it disproves your point. But whatever.

so basically anyone YOU perceive to be a PF are the only ones that deserve to be talked about when discussing PFs? nobody said playing time at the center means he's dismissed at PF. I said playing time at the center dismisses him as a pure PF something that you were trying to argue only griffin and millsap are.

you limiting the discussion to the best "natural" PFs would be like miller light claiming they won gold medal at the GABF (which they only won for the best american adjunct lager or something stupid like that). at least the GABF has specific guidelines on how to judge beer instead of relying on what seems or people think on light beer

wtf are you talking about? i just spend so much time addressing why ESPN sucks. you're the one who never addressed my points. i'm saying you using ESPN disproves your point that griffin is a top 3 PF.
Quote:

At this point we are just going in circles and come to no end.



At the end of the day...
It was my list! Before you twist it around and put words in my mouth again, no I am not saying at is the sole list that should be followed and it isn't the end all of all rankings. Simply my list and my opinion you chose to argue against.

List your top rankings players and be done with this discussion because you seem to only want your opinion to matter.

you're right it is your list. but you stated your list because you have an opinion on who are actually the top 3. just because it's your list means we're not allowed to discuss it?

this is like noobs posting a fit on WAYWT and when people give opinions on it they get all defensive and claim they never wanted criticism or people to talk about it

and discussing my opinion means i seem to only want my opinion to matter? lol8[1].gif. everybody has opinions and everybody argues for their own opinions. what did you think i was trying to do? argue for your opinion and not mine?




i need to stop drinking and then arguing inane shit online. at the end of the day nobody really cares and none of the players give a fuck about me or you. i'm just happy the nets beat the heats last night and shaun livingston was a beast.
post #13342 of 27825
Thread Starter 
It's not about not being allowed to discuss but you are plainly saying my opinions are wrong and that is a different story. Again putting words in my mouth and calling me a noob. lol8[1].gif And I am defensive? I am simply discussing things with you too but I am labelled defensive and you aren't? That's one of the biggest forum cliche if I've seen one. What's next, you gon ask why I am mad? lol8[1].gif


And yes, in my opinion, you can't simply insert any player who played PF in the conversation. A tweener like Lebron or George are not a true PF in my opinion, it has to be a general PF. I already addressed Dirk as a natural 3 was a mistake since I was in a rush but I wouldn't say he is better than Griffin right now, PF or not.



And I am not sure what you mean by ESPN proving me wrong that Blake isn't on the top when they have him ranked above Melo, Dirk and Millsap right now, only PF there (I'd even give you Dirk) ahead of Blake is Love. AGain that is not including Lebron or Durant as PF because that's not their natural positions. Gasol is arguable.

286smsl.png
post #13343 of 27825
Thread Starter 
And now this feels like an NBA thread.


lol8[1].gif
post #13344 of 27825
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

It's not about not being allowed to discuss but you are plainly saying my opinions are wrong and that is a different story. Again putting words in my mouth and calling me a noob. lol8[1].gif And I am defensive? I am simply discussing things with you too but I am labelled defensive and you aren't? That's one of the biggest forum cliche if I've seen one. What's next, you gon ask why I am mad? lol8[1].gif

you're the one defending your list so i guess you're being defensive?

why you mad son?

get off my dick.

i wasn't calling you a noob. i was simply comparing you to people (usually noobs) who post fits on waywt and get defensive when people criticize it. i was comparing your defensiveness to what happens in waywt instead of calling you a noob. get it right, noob (10, do i really need to include the sarcasm meter)
Quote:
And yes, in my opinion, you can't simply insert any player who played PF in the conversation. A tweener like Lebron or George are not a true PF in my opinion, it has to be a general PF. I already addressed Dirk as a natural 3 was a mistake since I was in a rush but I wouldn't say he is better than Griffin right now, PF or not.

and like i said where's your criteria for defining who's a "general" PF and not? if we're going by minutes melo is definitely in the conversation. melo plays way more four. last season he played almost as many minutes at the five as he plays at the three. this season he plays almost double the minutes at the four than he does at the three

this is the same argument people have over position eligibility in fantasy basketball. that's why there's criteria. simply having played a position one time doesn't give you eligibility. otoh if you've spent quality minutes at a position then yeah you're eligible.

what're we going to argue next? pure power forwards play x amount of minutes at the four whereas hybrids spend y amount? like where's the line?

like i said the field for "pure" power forwards is very limited (and if you're going to say melo is not a pure power forward than griffin is also not a pure power forward)

and again why are only pure 4s in the conversation? lebron plays the four more than the three (39% vs 31% http://www.82games.com/1314/13MIA8.HTM). heats have a small ball identity and they run lebron at the four a lot. and he's very good at it. he's better at the four than love, aldridge, and griffin if you look at per for those positions. so why he is not a legitimate four?
Quote:
And I am not sure what you mean by ESPN proving me wrong that Blake isn't on the top when they have him ranked above Melo, Dirk and Millsap right now, only PF there (I'd even give you Dirk) ahead of Blake is Love. AGain that is not including Lebron or Durant as PF because that's not their natural positions. Gasol is arguable.
n

read what i wrote above about why ESPN's system at ranking players is not great. your using espn to prove that griffin is on top is wrong because espn is wrong. that's the point i'm making. by gasol i hope you mean marc gasol
post #13345 of 27825
Thread Starter 
And you were defending your stance too, were you not? Are oyu not defending your statement about stas, about ESPN being wrong, etc...?

Quote:
by gasol i hope you mean marc gasol

It clearly shows Marc Gasol in the picture.


But whatever, we obviously can't agree what a PF is and you seem to believe Melo is better than Griffin right now and if not, then that shouldn't even be part of the discussion. You also believe Dirk is better, which I also disagree, along with Millsap. Those aren't better than Griffin, PF or not. Simple as that.

And Lebron is still a tweener, just like Melo but you aren't going to agree so whats the point?


Anyways, let's move on.
post #13346 of 27825
Thread Starter 
Didn't even notice it but Brooklyn is undefeated in 2014 so far.

Dubbs going nuts right now too, another game winner by Curry, he better make the All-Star this year.

lol8[1].gif @ Lin being ahead of Harden in ASG votes.
post #13347 of 27825
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

Didn't even notice it but Brooklyn is undefeated in 2014 so far.

Dubbs going nuts right now too, another game winner by Curry, he better make the All-Star this year.

lol8[1].gif @ Lin being ahead of Harden in ASG votes.

lol8[1].gif asian nation
post #13348 of 27825

JR!!!! Sometimes a kid just needs to be punished. 

post #13349 of 27825
worst thread on sf
post #13350 of 27825
Quote:
Originally Posted by jet View Post

worst thread on sf

 

I believe that dishonor belongs to the Alden thread. Who started that one?

 

:cheers:

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