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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread - Page 889

post #13321 of 27359
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

We're not talking about stats, just the top players this year. The post that initiated the discussion was speaking of Melo being top 5 in a bar, not statistically.

Name someone undeniably better than Griffin at the 4 that isn't Aldridge or Love?

this is a silly argument. you want someone to list a better player than griffin? undeniably better? based on what if not statistics.

if i was going to draft a pf today for the future i would go with dirk. however Dirk is a better PF today
post #13322 of 27359
Thread Starter 
Hell fantasy stat-wise, Griffin is easily #4 in all Forwards and yes that includes small forwards: http://fantasynews.cbssports.com/fantasybasketball/rankings

If only looking at true PFs, Love is the only one above Griffin right now.
post #13323 of 27359
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAMOR View Post

this is a silly argument. you want someone to list a better player than griffin? undeniably better? based on what if not statistics


How about actually watching how the players play and affect the game? Their contributions that isn't calculated in the stat sheet?

You'll often see Howard be called the best center in the league but he isn't always on the top statistically.

Look at the top list on ESPN or CBS that isn't about fantasy, there are some correlation there but they don't always match up perfectly. And tell me Griffin isn't on the top of both lists?
post #13324 of 27359
Admittedly griffin and lillard is arguable. Depends on the metric you're looking at. But tony Parker isn't even on the radar. None of the spurs are individually playing well and the starting five barely break 30 min. Ginobili is playing better than Parker stuck in a rotation with danny green and that other guy. But that's the amazing thing about the spurs. That's how good they and popovich are in general. I bet I could even become a rotation player under popovich (not really but one can hope). The funny thing is they don't even have some tricked out offensive or defensive sets like the heats have with the slash or dish for a three ball offense or super aggressive hedge evey pick and roll (except for the pacers) defense. Spurs have just good fundamentals. It's like watching college ball but better
post #13325 of 27359
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

What? That statement is laughable. lol8[1].gif

Lillard not top 20? Leading the biggest surprise/breakout team of the year along with several clutch shots already in the year?

Parker not even top 80? Leading arguably the best team in the league?

Griffin is easily top 10, look at his stats in comparison to last year, especially his last 20 or so games. Top PFs in talks right now are, in no particular order, Griffin, Aldridge and Love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

We're not talking about stats, just the top players this year. The post that initiated the discussion was speaking of Melo being top 5 in a bar, not statistically.

Name someone undeniably better than Griffin at the 4 that isn't Aldridge or Love?

Actually we are talking about stats. You said it yourself.

How about nowitzki and Davis? Both play the four next to Dejuan Blair or Ajinca/smith (not to mention James and durant in small lineups)

Even if we're not talking stats and leave out melo nowitzki is a far better game changing four then griffin. Griffin still needs to polish his mid range game and his post game isn't the best. Nowitzki can reliably hit a shot anywhere on the court and can create shots for himself skills griffin doesn't entirely have. Griffin doesn't even have a three ball game and isn't good on defense (doesn't have the steals and blocks that millsap has and millsap has a three ball game for better spacing. Watch the guys guarding him. People stick by him)

What kind of idiot calls Howard the top center in the game? Hibbert is a better game changing center than he is
Edited by indesertum - 1/10/14 at 4:41pm
post #13326 of 27359
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteslashasian View Post

I guess I chose a great time to catch some Knicks games. I watched them beat the Spurs on the road and Heat at home. Watching those games really gives hope that the Knicks can figure out how to play together. They have a huge wealth of talent and role players who just need to learn how to gel and work on both sides of the floor.

I feel like the biggest momentum shift in last nights game was Shump draining those huge threes at the start of the 2nd half. Allowed the Knicks to space the floor since they only made 1 out of 10 attempts in the 1st half. Hardaway's putback over Ray Allen really solidified the mental game for the Knicks:


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iPngb35CAFJLg.gif

Ha ha... look at Lebron look at him afterwards.

I told you the kid could play. Now Ray Allen isn't exactly the greatest leaper ever, but play was still impressive for the energy it gives the team.
post #13327 of 27359
I find the Carmelo haters to be crazier many times than the Carmelo lovers. Anthony Davis/Blake Griffin are now better players than a guy that lead the league in scoring last year, is top 3 this year, can score from anywhere on the court and can play multiple positions confused.gif

and when the Knicks drafted Hardaway I told you guys it was a great pick.
post #13328 of 27359
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post


Actually we are talking about stats. You said it yourself.

How about nowitzki and Davis? Both play the four next to Dejuan Blair or Ajinca/smith (not to mention James and durant in small lineups)

Even if we're not talking stats and leave out melo nowitzki is a far better game changing four then griffin. Griffin still needs to polish his mid range game and his post game isn't the best. Nowitzki can reliably hit a shot anywhere on the court and can create shots for himself skills griffin doesn't entirely have. Griffin doesn't even have a three ball game and isn't good on defense (doesn't have the steals and blocks that millsap has and millsap has a three ball game for better spacing. Watch the guys guarding him. People stick by him)

What kind of idiot calls Howard the top center in the game? Hibbert is a better game changing center than he is


Lots of people put Howard the best center, you may disagree or not but some believe he is "back in dominant shape". Look at all the analysts.

You obviously haven't seen Griffin play, his mid range shot has increased by at least 10%, a drastic change. He is also making his free throws, 70% for the season, better than 70% the past 15-20 games. His post moves isn't great or that of a dominant big man but it is above average, he can still bump and grind in the paint base purely on athleticism but he is getting better at it.

And again, I said pure 4s. Nowitzki, Lebron, etc... those are more sfs and you know it. Millsap I'd give oyu but he is not and I mean not better than Griffin right now. Their defense is on par, this is why the Clips are winning, Docs making them defend. Millsaps 3 isn't a huge threat an dno one in their right mind would pick Millsap over Griffin to start a team with. It is as simple as that.


And basing on your "stats" point, you just ignores my post proving Griffins stats to be better than those others?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

Hell fantasy stat-wise, Griffin is easily #4 in all Forwards and yes that includes small forwards: http://fantasynews.cbssports.com/fantasybasketball/rankings

If only looking at true PFs, Love is the only one above Griffin right now.
post #13329 of 27359
Also while we're on stats I've harped before on how espn and yahoo ranking sucks. This might not be basketball but I'm pretty sure they use the same methodology. Fwiw these are projections not rankings. The site I use does z scores for every category which IMO is better

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/12/how-accurate-are-yahoo-espn-and-cbs-fantasy-projections/?_r=0
post #13330 of 27359
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

Lots of people put Howard the best center, you may disagree or not but some believe he is "back in dominant shape". Look at all the analysts.

You obviously haven't seen Griffin play, his mid range shot has increased by at least 10%, a drastic change. He is also making his free throws, 70% for the season, better than 70% the past 15-20 games. His post moves isn't great or that of a dominant big man but it is above average, he can still bump and grind in the paint base purely on athleticism but he is getting better at it.

And again, I said pure 4s. Nowitzki, Lebron, etc... those are more sfs and you know it. Millsap I'd give oyu but he is not and I mean not better than Griffin right now. Their defense is on par, this is why the Clips are winning, Docs making them defend. Millsaps 3 isn't a huge threat an dno one in their right mind would pick Millsap over Griffin to start a team with. It is as simple as that.


And basing on your "stats" point, you just ignores my post proving Griffins stats to be better than those others?

People would build around griffin because he has a high ceiling.

I actually wrote about griffins free throws but the stupid software always gets stuck at submitting and I didn't bother to rewrite.

Dude are you really going to argue griffins free throws is part of the reason he's better than nowitzki the top three best free throw shooter of the game?

Do you even know how cbs and espn ranks it's players? I don't. Actually fwiu nobody really knows.

Also nowitzki is a natural three???????????????????? Wtf are you talking about

Millsap is not the best four these past few games but they've had a really tough schedule under the best defense oriented teams. Mark my words he's going to end up top 12 at the end of the year

Blake's mid range game has indeed improved a lot but he can't create a mid range shot consistently like melo and nowitzki can. I'd put nowitzki and melo ahead of Aldridge and millsap might end up better. And above average post game doesn't put him ahead of melo

Also if you're going to limit to pure forwards that only play the four that's a really small field. wouldn't a player able to play multiple positions be a better player all else equal?
post #13331 of 27359
nice highlight W/A... might check out Heat v. Nets now.
post #13332 of 27359
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

I find the Carmelo haters to be crazier many times than the Carmelo lovers. Anthony Davis/Blake Griffin are now better players than a guy that lead the league in scoring last year, is top 3 this year, can score from anywhere on the court and can play multiple positions confused.gif

and when the Knicks drafted Hardaway I told you guys it was a great pick.

 

Carmelo is a basketball player with tremendous skill and the ability to single handedly win a game. BUT over the course of a season he ranks pretty low. 33rd this year so far in WS/48.

post #13333 of 27359
What little respect I had for RiRi evaporated when I saw her cry for the wrap-around on James

lecryin.gif
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Bdqv8JTCAAAHVzU.png:large

Edited by Neo_Version 7 - 1/10/14 at 8:16pm
post #13334 of 27359
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

People would build around griffin because he has a high ceiling.

I actually wrote about griffins free throws but the stupid software always gets stuck at submitting and I didn't bother to rewrite.

Dude are you really going to argue griffins free throws is part of the reason he's better than nowitzki the top three best free throw shooter of the game?

Do you even know how cbs and espn ranks it's players? I don't. Actually fwiu nobody really knows.

Also nowitzki is a natural three???????????????????? Wtf are you talking about

Millsap is not the best four these past few games but they've had a really tough schedule under the best defense oriented teams. Mark my words he's going to end up top 12 at the end of the year

Blake's mid range game has indeed improved a lot but he can't create a mid range shot consistently like melo and nowitzki can. I'd put nowitzki and melo ahead of Aldridge and millsap might end up better. And above average post game doesn't put him ahead of melo

Also if you're going to limit to pure forwards that only play the four that's a really small field. wouldn't a player able to play multiple positions be a better player all else equal?


First of all, I did not say Griffins ft is the sole reason why he is better then Nowitzi, Dirk is simply on his way down, simple as that and he isn't a true PF.


And are you really saying Millsap is better than Griffin?


And yeah my fault about Dirk being a natural 3, I was in a hurry earlier but he isn't a prototypical 4. And yes a tweener like Lebron and Dirk are better overall but the discussion is 4 position. See what you wrote below. But again, no one is ranking or picking Dirk before Blake this year, it is as easy as that.


At the end of the day, this is what you wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post


There's so many players at the four playing better than griffin it's laughable.


Yet you provided one legit PF, Millsap and it isn't even a question that Griffin is better than him.

You want stats though, here's some: In January alone, Millsap averaged 12/8/3 n 24% shooting, while Griffin is at 24/9/4 (you can even round those up to 24/10/5) in 53% shooting. The difference is astounding and the 0.3blk and 0.3stl more he gets isn't enough to offset that.

This season, Griffin is at 22/10/3 at 52fg% and 70ft%, Millsap is at 17/8/2 (can be rounded up 17/9/3 just to be fair) with 46fg% and 73ft%.

Now, tell me Millsap is better?



As for Melo and Nowitzki, I'll say it for the last time, PF isn't their natural position. But again, look at the fantasy ranking for forwards and Griffin got them beat. Who gives a damn how they do their ranking, it can be a panel of analysts and sportscasters or some algorithm that gives them a per, whatever but at the end of the day Griffin tops those guys and that is still proof that Griffin is better in those analysts/sportcasters/writers mind.

Just because it disproves your point doesn't mean you can just shrug it off and say "I don't know how they do their ranking" and make them invalid. lol8[1].gif
Edited by RFX45 - 1/10/14 at 9:26pm
post #13335 of 27359
Griffin reminds me of Sun's Amare. I hope for his sake he doesn't suffer any major leg injury in the future because I don't think his game is developed enough to compensate for less athleticism.

For the sake of argument, griffin is a top 3 pf. But to me, he isn't good enough to lead a team. That's to say I don't think he has the skills or leadership ability to carry a team to a title. In other words, he is a great 2nd option and only with a better player can he become a champ.

Edit-watching him now and he is clearly the best player on the court
Edited by NAMOR - 1/10/14 at 9:15pm
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