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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread - Page 831

post #12451 of 27206
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by foodguy View Post

a great point guard makes everybody on the team more productive, that's not something you can say of a 2, 3 or 4, though those guys will probably put up more points. A great 5, of course, is grail time -- scoring, rebounding, stopping. but so much in basketball, particularly nba, is about the flow and that's where the pg comes in.

I agree but you also have to look at the history. When was the last time an NBA team was led by a great PG? Parker in 2007? And then it could be argued that it is Thomas in '90 championship after that. I am not sure I'd count Billups but I'd give him credit. In the past 2 decades, there have been 3 PGs that you can argue led the team to a championship.
post #12452 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

I agree but you also have to look at the history. When was the last time an NBA team was led by a great PG? Parker in 2007? And then it could be argued that it is Thomas in '90 championship after that. I am not sure I'd count Billups but I'd give him credit. In the past 2 decades, there have been 3 PGs that you can argue led the team to a championship.
that's a good point. so a great point guard an make even an average team better, but may not be enough to get it over the top. interesting. but looking just at the mvps ... there have been 9 players earn finals mvp since 1990.
nowitzki and duncan are 4s
kobe, wade and jordan are 2s
olajuwan and shaq are 5s
pierce is a 2/3
parker is a 1
so when you look at it that way, it's really a pretty limited sample size.
still, i'd say maybe rondo in 2008 (as much as i hate him); I'd probably count billups. and before that you have to go back to magic.
post #12453 of 27206
Thread Starter 
But you also have to look at the frequency though, I mean MJ got the finals award 6 times, Olajuwon got 2, Shaq got 3. So just from those players, I'd count that as 6 SGs and 5 centers. Even with Spurs' 4 championships, Duncan led them to 3 and Parker only led them once and I do not even think the team is built around Parker, it was still built around Duncan, Parker just happens to fully breakout that year.

Maybe the game has evolved to where the PG is still essential but they aren't the key for a championship anymore? But just looking at it, before 1990, there were Thomas, Dumars and then Magic (who got 3 finals MVP) then Dennis Johnson but after that it pretty goes down to Jerry West. So PGs may not always get the credit they deserve in some championships? But just looking at the data, feels like PG isn't the best position to build around?
post #12454 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

And if Jrue averages 20pts/10ast next season? They'd be kicking themselves like Portland did by picking Oden over Durant. I'm just not sold on this years draft, I have very low expectations and I see most as a solid wingman at best.

And Ginobili is a 57th pick and Parker was 28th. So what is your point? There will always be lower drafted player that will excel but for the most part, those are sheer dumb luck outside of San Antonio who just knows how to develop their players.

13 out of the first 15 players being a solid rotation player as a strong draft? What is solid? 8-10 minute player in the span of a 10 year career? That is not a strong draft. 2008 is a strong draft with Rose, Westbrook, Love, Batum, Lopez, Hibbert, Gallinari, etc... 99 Draft was strong with Brand, Marion, Hamilton, Odom, Artest, BDiddy, Francis, etc... With 03, 96 & 84 being the best ever draft years. This years is mediocre at best but hey, feel free to come back after the season ends next year and give me an "I told you so". I'd love to be proven wrong but right now, no one stands out and I feel this draft will be right there in the bottom as one of the worst.

You're missing the point or rather thinking short term rather than long term. Whatever Jrue does next year is irrelevant. The fact is that there best case scenario with him was making the playoffs and losing the first round. Then picking up a decent, but not great player in the draft. The Sixers are thinking 2-3 years out. If they get Parker or Wiggins next year, they will ge a better team than they ever would have been with Jrue. MCW is a very good one on one defender, from a program that never plays one on one and Noel is a rim protector. If you want a Shaq or Morning, he'll never be that but if he stays healthy he can become a Mutumbo type player.

In terms of Parker/Ginoboli, that is my point. It's seen as dumb luck that those guys are who they are. No one is going to be shocked if Hardaway turns into a high double digit scorer, the surprise will be if he doesn't. There was quality in this draft well into the 20's, no dumb luck required.

If you were looking for 4-5 impact guys that will become stars next year, then this draft sucked. If you are looking for a draft where about 15 teams all improved, then this was a strong draft.
post #12455 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAMOR View Post

Mcclemore
he might have the best chance, i agree. especially since he plays a position, SG, where most of the league sucks. but man, he plays for the Kings, who will be so bad he'll have to be truly transcendent to get votes, and there's an assload of good guards in the west.

everyone else seems like a decent pro at best, with some of these picks looking truly laughable. Cody Zeller?
post #12456 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAMOR View Post

Mcclemore

Plus Bennett. Trey Burke. And depending on the coaching/system, Porter (he is a classic GTown player that will be a better pro than he was a college player).
post #12457 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

Maybe the game has evolved to where the PG is still essential but they aren't the key for a championship anymore?
kind of. of the champions that didn't have a great PG, they had an equal opportunity offense like the triangle (11 championships out of this system!) or a PG at a different position (i.e. Lebron). since the Bird/Magic/Isiah years, the champion has had one or more or the above, or a great PG (Bad Boys, Lakers, 2008 Celtics, 2011 Mavs). the two exceptions are the Bird Celtics and the Olajuwon Rockets.
post #12458 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

Plus Bennett. Trey Burke. And depending on the coaching/system, Porter (he is a classic GTown player that will be a better pro than he was a college player).
disagree with all those. and i am a Georgetown homer who loves Otto Porter.
post #12459 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRoi View Post

disagree with all those. and i am a Georgetown homer who loves Otto Porter.

Imagine Porter on Miami, instead of Haslem or whoever it is that plays next to Bosh.
post #12460 of 27206
Otto's best situation is a team where he can have the ball and create, like he and Jeff Green did when they were Hoyas. and that's going to be tough with a ball-dominant teammate like Wall. he won't fit on teams like the Heat or Spurs because he's not a great shooter.

Trey Burke had a great tournament, but he doesn't strike me as someone who has a skill or ability that allows him to be dominant. like when Rose was in the tournament, he was clearly faster than everyone else and he could go around or over people. Burke kind of just used his will and his heart to stay in or win games, but he wasn't physically dominant against even college competition
post #12461 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRoi View Post

Otto's best situation is a team where he can have the ball and create, like he and Jeff Green did when they were Hoyas. and that's going to be tough with a ball-dominant teammate like Wall. he won't fit on teams like the Heat or Spurs because he's not a great shooter.

Trey Burke had a great tournament, but he doesn't strike me as someone who has a skill or ability that allows him to be dominant. like when Rose was in the tournament, he was clearly faster than everyone else and he could go around or over people. Burke kind of just used his will and his heart to stay in or win games, but he wasn't physically dominant against even college competition

Keep in mind that Wall had no one really to pass the ball to so its kind of hard to not be ball dominant. Otto goes after it. He and Nene will get work done inside, doesn't make them a playoff team but I like solid big men (uhoh.gif), good guards are around in almost every draft/free agent mkt. And I'll aways take heart/determination over physical talent.
post #12462 of 27206
so i googled "worst NBA draft" and came up with this gem, the 2000 draft:


1 1 Kenyon Martin + PF United States New Jersey Nets Cincinnati (Sr.)
1 2 Stromile Swift PF/C United States Vancouver Grizzlies LSU (So.)
1 3 Darius Miles SF/SG United States Los Angeles Clippers East St. Louis HS (East St. Louis, IL)
1 4 Marcus Fizer PF United States Chicago Bulls Iowa State (Jr.)
1 5 Mike Miller SF/SG United States Orlando Magic Florida (So.)
1 6 DerMarr Johnson SG/SF United States Atlanta Hawks Cincinnati (Fr.)
1 7 Chris Mihm C/PF United States Chicago Bulls (traded to Cleveland for Jamal Crawford and cash) Texas (Jr.)
1 8 Jamal Crawford SG United States Cleveland Cavaliers (traded to Chicago with cash for Chris Mihm) Michigan (Fr.)
1 9 Joel Przybilla C United States Houston Rockets (traded to Milwaukee for Jason Collier and a future first-round pick) Minnesota (So.)
1 10 Keyon Dooling SG United States Orlando Magic (from Denver, traded to L.A. Clippers with Corey Maggette, Derek Strong and cash for a future first-round pick) Missouri (So.)
1 11 Jérome Moïso PF France Boston Celtics UCLA (So.)
1 12 Etan Thomas PF/C United States Dallas Mavericks Syracuse (Sr.)
1 13 Courtney Alexander SG United States Orlando Magic (traded to Dallas for a future first-round pick and cash) Fresno State (Sr.)
1 14 Mateen Cleaves PG United States Detroit Pistons Michigan State (Sr.)
1 15 Jason Collier C United States Milwaukee Bucks (traded with future first-round pick to Houston for Joel Przybilla) Georgia Tech (Sr.)
1 16 Hedo Türkoğlu SF Turkey Sacramento Kings Efes Pilsen (Turkey) 1979
1 17 Desmond Mason SF/SG United States Seattle SuperSonics Oklahoma State (Sr.)
1 18 Quentin Richardson SF/SG United States Los Angeles Clippers (from Toronto via Atlanta, Philadelphia and New York) DePaul (So.)
1 19 Jamaal Magloire+ C Canada Charlotte Hornets Kentucky (Sr.)
1 20 Speedy Claxton PG United States Philadelphia 76ers Hofstra (Sr.)
1 21 Morris Peterson SF/SG United States Toronto Raptors (from Minnesota) Michigan State (Sr.)
1 22 Donnell Harvey SF United States New York Knicks (traded with John Wallace to Dallas for Erick Strickland and Pete Mickeal) Florida (Fr.)
1 23 DeShawn Stevenson SG United States Utah Jazz (from Miami) Washington Union HS (Fresno, CA)
1 24 Dalibor Bagarić C Croatia Chicago Bulls (from San Antonio) Benston Zagreb (Croatia) 1980
1 25 Iakovos "Jake" Tsakalidis C Greece Phoenix Suns AEK (Greece) 1979
1 26 Mamadou N'Diaye C Senegal Denver Nuggets (from Utah) Auburn (Sr.)
1 27 Primož Brezec C Slovenia Indiana Pacers Union Olimpija (Slovenia) 1979
1 28 Erick Barkley PG United States Portland Trail Blazers St. John's (So.)
1 29 Mark Madsen PF United States Los Angeles Lakers Stanford (Sr.)


now the Bucks also got Michael Redd in the 2nd round, but dear God, this is a train wreck. Rookie of the Year was Mike Miller. only Redd, Magloire and Kenyon Martin ever played in an ASG, and even then i was lmao because i was shocked that Magloire and KMart would have ever been named all stars. must have been a lot of injuries those years lol8[1].gif

time will tell if 2013 is better or worse than this one
post #12463 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

Keep in mind that Wall had no one really to pass the ball to so its kind of hard to not be ball dominant. Otto goes after it. He and Nene will get work done inside, doesn't make them a playoff team but I like solid big men (uhoh.gif), good guards are around in almost every draft/free agent mkt. And I'll aways take heart/determination over physical talent.
agree completely if we are saying Porter will be a solid big man. i was really saying that i don't see him as a future All star.

Victor Oladipo is kind of interesting as a Kawhi Leonard type. but even Kawhi Leonard won't be an all star unless he plays a whole season like he played the NBA finals - do-everything utility players that play good defense and aren't flashy tend to get snubbed for individual awards. not saying Kawhi couldn't do it, but the bar is pretty high. and Oladipo has a long way to go before he even gets to half of Leonard's offensive game
post #12464 of 27206
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

But you also have to look at the frequency though, I mean MJ got the finals award 6 times, Olajuwon got 2, Shaq got 3. So just from those players, I'd count that as 6 SGs and 5 centers. Even with Spurs' 4 championships, Duncan led them to 3 and Parker only led them once and I do not even think the team is built around Parker, it was still built around Duncan, Parker just happens to fully breakout that year.

Maybe the game has evolved to where the PG is still essential but they aren't the key for a championship anymore? But just looking at it, before 1990, there were Thomas, Dumars and then Magic (who got 3 finals MVP) then Dennis Johnson but after that it pretty goes down to Jerry West. So PGs may not always get the credit they deserve in some championships? But just looking at the data, feels like PG isn't the best position to build around?
i guess the point i was half-trying to make was that maybe it's more the player than the position. i'm not sure i believe that ... it's probably a combination of both. but if it was the position by itself, you might expect to see more repeats from different players. i do think the nba follows fashion as well ... when a dominant player emerges at a certain position, the group-think tends to be that that's the most important position "the way the game is played today".
post #12465 of 27206
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

You're missing the point or rather thinking short term rather than long term. Whatever Jrue does next year is irrelevant. The fact is that there best case scenario with him was making the playoffs and losing the first round. Then picking up a decent, but not great player in the draft. The Sixers are thinking 2-3 years out. If they get Parker or Wiggins next year, they will ge a better team than they ever would have been with Jrue. MCW is a very good one on one defender, from a program that never plays one on one and Noel is a rim protector. If you want a Shaq or Morning, he'll never be that but if he stays healthy he can become a Mutumbo type player.

In terms of Parker/Ginoboli, that is my point. It's seen as dumb luck that those guys are who they are. No one is going to be shocked if Hardaway turns into a high double digit scorer, the surprise will be if he doesn't. There was quality in this draft well into the 20's, no dumb luck required.

If you were looking for 4-5 impact guys that will become stars next year, then this draft sucked. If you are looking for a draft where about 15 teams all improved, then this was a strong draft.


I am not missing the point, a 23 year old Holiday that is still has a good ceiling to reach is a good player to keep and a good player for your future than Noel or whoever the hell is in this draft. You keep saying what if they get Parker or Wiggins but what if they don't? Then your premise is fucked. What if they draw a 10th pick next year? Or as you said, make the playoffs because the lower end of the Eastern conference is pretty damn weak. Boston just blew up and got weaker too. Then what? And Noel is even more risky with that injury, plain and simple. Bynum hasn't recovered from it, it pretty much killed Odens career and Rose hasn't even returned from it.

And no, there is no quality into the 20s in this draft. Get the hell out of here with that shit. Again, come back at the end of this year if these top 20-30 drafts makes a difference and create an in their teams I bow to your brilliance but get the hell out here with that crap. I don't even think 2003 drafts improved 15 teams in the league and that is one of the most loaded drafts in history. Lebron, Wade, Melo, Bosh, Kaman, etc...

I would not be surprise if 10 of the top 20, hell even 15 of the top 30 are out of the league or just in the end of the bench within 2-3 years.

lol8[1].gif at you saying 15 teams will improve in this draft. get real. 15 teams is half of the league, the bottom feeders are all of a sudden going to be contenders or make the playoffs?
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