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NBA 2014-2015 Season Thread - Page 617

post #9241 of 18405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggskip View Post

One of these folks might know.

idnfl, I think you're simplifying it a little too much to say that Harden is choosing money over titles. Isn't Presti (or Clay Bennett) guilty of the same thing. Also, it's not like the OKC front office didn't know that this problem was coming. They chose to give large extensions to KD, RW, and even Ibaka. They could've asked all of those guys to take a discount to give them some flexibility. The front office could have even worked out an agreement where the players agree to take a little less and the owners agree to go over the luxury tax line to some degree just to show that everybody had some skin in the game.
In the end, however, the OKC front office put it all on Harden to make all the sacrifices simply because he is the youngest. That's not fair to Harden. There's even a rumor that he would have signed for what OKC was offering if OKC would agree to a trade kicker (where Harden would have to okay any trade that he was a part of) and they said no. It seems to me that Harden gave them a several opportunities to re-sign him if they would only give in a little bit. At every turn they said no, so eventually so did he.

None of us really know if that is true. Sounds like a publicist trying not to get his guy labeled a money grubber. If it is, then its probably not as simple as a trade kicker. Isnt it true Kobe is the only player in the league with that?

I think that if Harden moved his ass in the finals we wouldn't be having this conversation. I dont think you guys are giving those 5 games enough weight as a contributor to this process.
post #9242 of 18405
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

I think that if Harden moved his ass in the finals we wouldn't be having this conversation. I dont think you guys are giving those 5 games enough weight as a contributor to this process.

OKC has steadily moved up and take a step closer to the title every year. First making the playoff and getting eliminated in the 1st round, the next year making it to the second round and then the semi-final the year after and finally to the finals last year and that is with their current line-up including Harden. If the pattern continues, they should have the title this year if they had the same roster.

Would they have liked him playing better in the finals last year? Of course but that can't be the main reason he was traded at all. You put too much weight in how he played in when he was still the 3rd option in that team so the heavier burden should fall on the #1 and #2 guy even if they played incredible. Didn't Lebron get all the shit on him when he failed in the finals as a Cavs? He was the only option in that team and he played great but still got swept by the Spurs and didn't he still got called a "choker" or someone that will never win it all afterwards?

Trust me, Hardens play in the finals isn't the main reason he got traded because he was the sixth man of the year and is simply a very good player and w/o him, I doubt they would even reach the finals. Plus Harden is 23 years old, it is safe to assume he isn't even close to his prime yet and he could certainly improve being the sixth man and likely play much better this year if they made it to the finals again.
post #9243 of 18405
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

None of us really know if that is true. Sounds like a publicist trying not to get his guy labeled a money grubber. If it is, then its probably not as simple as a trade kicker. Isnt it true Kobe is the only player in the league with that?
I think that if Harden moved his ass in the finals we wouldn't be having this conversation. I dont think you guys are giving those 5 games enough weight as a contributor to this process.

It's only his 3rd season as a pro. So he had a bad finals? It's not like he wasn't good throughout the playoffs leading up to the finals. I think he would have been fine if he had made it back to the finals again.

Edit: or what RFX45 said
post #9244 of 18405
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

OKC has steadily moved up and take a step closer to the title every year. First making the playoff and getting eliminated in the 1st round, the next year making it to the second round and then the semi-final the year after and finally to the finals last year and that is with their current line-up including Harden. If the pattern continues, they should have the title this year if they had the same roster.
Would they have liked him playing better in the finals last year? Of course but that can't be the main reason he was traded at all. You put too much weight in how he played in when he was still the 3rd option in that team so the heavier burden should fall on the #1 and #2 guy even if they played incredible. Didn't Lebron get all the shit on him when he failed in the finals as a Cavs? He was the only option in that team and he played great but still got swept by the Spurs and didn't he still got called a "choker" or someone that will never win it all afterwards?
Trust me, Hardens play in the finals isn't the main reason he got traded because he was the sixth man of the year and is simply a very good player and w/o him, I doubt they would even reach the finals. Plus Harden is 23 years old, it is safe to assume he isn't even close to his prime yet and he could certainly improve being the sixth man and likely play much better this year if they made it to the finals again.

Never said it was the main reason

What I am saying is that if he showed up in the finals (RW and KD did) then they might be champs and this wouldnt have happened.
post #9245 of 18405
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

Never said it was the main reason

What I am saying is that if he showed up in the finals (RW and KD did) then they might be champs and this wouldnt have happened.

You never said it was the main reason but this pretty much implies it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post


I think that if Harden moved his ass in the finals we wouldn't be having this conversation.


But lets face it, the Heat was simply the better team. Lebron stopped choking and that was a finals for them to lose and that comes from a guy who had initially picked OKC to win over the Heat. Let's give them the credit and even if Harden played better than he did, chances are the Heat would still be champions and the series would just be extended by a game or two. No one could have stopped Lebron in the final few games of the finals, he was averaging a triple double iirc.
post #9246 of 18405
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

But lets face it, the Heat was simply the better team. Lebron stopped choking and that was a finals for them to lose and that comes from a guy who had initially picked OKC to win over the Heat. Let's give them the credit and even if Harden played better than he did, chances are the Heat would still be champions and the series would just be extended by a game or two. No one could have stopped Lebron in the final few games of the finals, he was averaging a triple double iirc.

I put LJ's performance on S Brooks. He made some pretty shitty coaching decisions in the finals. Dallas shut his ass down thru some excellent game plans. OKC got run over, in part because of coaching decisions, in part because Harden was shit, then more minor reasons.
post #9247 of 18405
Thread Starter 
lol8[1].gif

Damn, you really hate Harden that much? You're putting too much blame on him. I think you were the one rallying to trade him like an hour after they lost the finals. Come on now, you act like dude is the main reason they lost when he is just a part of the puzzle that unraveled. I think you are the only one still stuck on him playing terribly in the finals last year, I've read through like at least a hundred pages of discussion in other forums on the situation and you've mentioned his finals performance as a cause of being traded or as a key to them losing which led to this trade the most.
post #9248 of 18405
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

lol8[1].gif
Damn, you really hate Harden that much? You're putting too much blame on him. I think you were the one rallying to trade him like an hour after they lost the finals. Come on now, you act like dude is the main reason they lost when he is just a part of the puzzle that unraveled. I think you are the only one still stuck on him playing terribly in the finals last year, I've read through like at least a hundred pages of discussion in other forums on the situation and you've mentioned his finals performance as a cause of being traded or as a key to them losing which led to this trade the most.

I dont hate him, just pissed the heat won and a lot of it was at his feet.

I think they should have moved him for Rondo after the finals.
post #9249 of 18405
Thread Starter 
lol8[1].gif

Ahh, you are that person who also wanted to move Westbrook to the SG position. What are you going to do with Rondo really? Ball hog or not, Westbrook is best at his position (he is even in top 5 in fantasy because of what he does in that position, some are saying he is better than Wade fantasy-wise). He isn't a spot up shooter like Allen is, Westbrook needs the ball in his hands plain and simple.

Plus Rondo sucks in FT and iirc OKC is one of the best (if not the best last season) free throw shooting team and w/o that they'd have a harder time getting to the finals. Harden attempts 6 ft/g at @ 85% and Westbrook pretty much averages the same, Rondo averages 4 ft attempts at 60%, they'd lose about 8-10 points a game in that regard alone, not to mention teams could foul Rondo at the end of the game when it is crucial.

Rondo is a good PG but he isn't going to fit in around every team, w/o good shooters and great defensive back-up/coaching, he wouldn't excel as he does in Boston. Not to mention dude is a headcase like Artetst, I can see him clashing with Westbrook and Durant in the locker room. He fits well with the douchebags KG and Pierce, glad Allen finally left that team.
post #9250 of 18405
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

lol8[1].gif
Ahh, you are that person who also wanted to move Westbrook to the SG position. What are you going to do with Rondo really? Ball hog or not, Westbrook is best at his position (he is even in top 5 in fantasy because of what he does in that position, some are saying he is better than Wade fantasy-wise). He isn't a spot up shooter like Allen is, Westbrook needs the ball in his hands plain and simple.
Plus Rondo sucks in FT and iirc OKC is one of the best (if not the best last season) free throw shooting team and w/o that they'd have a harder time getting to the finals. Harden attempts 6 ft/g at @ 85% and Westbrook pretty much averages the same, Rondo averages 4 ft attempts at 60%, they'd lose about 8-10 points a game in that regard alone, not to mention teams could foul Rondo at the end of the game when it is crucial.
Rondo is a good PG but he isn't going to fit in around every team, w/o good shooters and great defensive back-up/coaching, he wouldn't excel as he does in Boston. Not to mention dude is a headcase like Artetst, I can see him clashing with Westbrook and Durant in the locker room. He fits well with the douchebags KG and Pierce, glad Allen finally left that team.

I'm also the guy that said OKC should have signed Steve Nash. That was my #1 move for this team to take them over the top, keep everyone in place.

RW needs the ball, but that doesn't mean he needs to be a PG. Michael Jordan wasn't a point and had the ball all the time.
post #9251 of 18405
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

RW needs the ball, but that doesn't mean he needs to be a PG. Michael Jordan wasn't a point and had the ball all the time.

Yeah and Jordan never really played with a superstar/scoring PG either or a PG that dominates the ball by holding onto it for majority of the shot clock, same with Lebron and Wade. Pippen was actually more of a point-SF in that team like Lebron is.

Why do you think a lot believe Kobe & Nash won't work well together? Because Kobe usually has the ball in his hands. And so far, Nash hasn't been himself (in the pres-season and first 2 games) while Kobe has been the same self. Kobe has adjusted so far but Nash hasn't. Has Kobe ever worked with a superstar PG that can dish like CP3 or Rondo (~10 apg)? No because they won't get the chance.

Rondo will not get a chance to be Rondo w/o stifling Westbrooks or Durants production, Rondo is perfect with Boston because he can distribute teh ball and runt he offense himself. Allen is spot up shooter and KG is great with pick&roll because of his range. Pierce is the only one-on-one scorer but he is also a spot up shooter if left open. This is the same reason I don't see Martin working well with OKC because he usually scores with the ball in his hand and I am not sure he can adapt to being a spot up shooter (see Crawford with Clips last night). There is a reason Harden comes off the bench when he can score/play SG, there just simply isn't much timeshare with the ball in the starting line-up if all 3 started. The 4th is usually a 3-way ball-share between Westbrook/Harden/Durant in OKC and watching them play, it is rare that all 3 has a great quarter all at the same time. Durant is the most consistent but Westbrook & Harden always has a trade off with the other picking up the slack.


Now this is base on what I see these players do, they may change or adapt so n the end, a Rondo, Westbrook & Durant line-up might work if Brooks decides to make them a running team since RW & KD & Ibaka are al athletic enough for a very fast paced game, we really wouldn't know. I just say it as I see it and I don't see Rondo fitting in well. Plus OKC needs to fill the scoring void of the bench that Harden used to occupy and trading him for Rondo (who has to star) pretty much negates that. Martin will likely come off the bench for that scoring punch so in the end, he is a better fit than Rondo unless OKCs offense are completely changed to accommodate someone like Rondo.

Now if you say trade Harden for CP3/DWill, PGs that can pass, score behind the 3, make free throws and just create their own shots, then that is a much better deal and those players can adapt better because they do not have to score but they can if needed and from practically anywhere in the court. But that is a whole new, different discussion.
Edited by RFX45 - 11/1/12 at 4:44pm
post #9252 of 18405
OK so you're 3 years out of college -

You're a programming contractor at Google. You love working there. They offer you a contract for $550,000 to work there for 4 years. This is at the Oklahoma Google office.

Now some startup company, say pinterest? offers to pay you $800,000 to work there for 5 years. you woulnd't mind working there and its a lead programmer roll which you prefer. It is at the Houston office.

Oh, and prior this this you've made $120,000 since graduating.

Oh, and you'll probably only be working for another 10-12 years because you have RSI and wont be able to type for the rest of your life.

Which do you pick.
post #9253 of 18405
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruzzi View Post

OK so you're 3 years out of college -
You're a programming contractor at Google. You love working there. They offer you a contract for $550,000 to work there for 4 years. This is at the Oklahoma Google office.
Now some startup company, say pinterest? offers to pay you $800,000 to work there for 5 years. you woulnd't mind working there and its a lead programmer roll which you prefer. It is at the Houston office.
Oh, and prior this this you've made $120,000 since graduating.
Oh, and you'll probably only be working for another 10-12 years because you have RSI and wont be able to type for the rest of your life.
Which do you pick.

Obviously Google.

You'd pick a startup that could fold in a year and leave 500k on the table? Are you nuts?
post #9254 of 18405
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruzzi View Post

OK so you're 3 years out of college -
You're a programming contractor at Google. You love working there. They offer you a contract for $550,000 to work there for 4 years. This is at the Oklahoma Google office.
Now some startup company, say pinterest? offers to pay you $800,000 to work there for 5 years. you woulnd't mind working there and its a lead programmer roll which you prefer. It is at the Houston office.
Oh, and prior this this you've made $120,000 since graduating.
Oh, and you'll probably only be working for another 10-12 years because you have RSI and wont be able to type for the rest of your life.
Which do you pick.

^ probably take my real estate license exam.
post #9255 of 18405
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruzzi View Post

OK so you're 3 years out of college -

You're a programming contractor at Google. You love working there. They offer you a contract for $550,000 to work there for 4 years. This is at the Oklahoma Google office.

Now some startup company, say pinterest? offers to pay you $800,000 to work there for 5 years. you woulnd't mind working there and its a lead programmer roll which you prefer. It is at the Houston office.

Oh, and prior this this you've made $120,000 since graduating.

Oh, and you'll probably only be working for another 10-12 years because you have RSI and wont be able to type for the rest of your life.

Which do you pick.

Terrible analogy.

Harden said no to the $55mil extension and then he was traded and only after that was he offered the $80mil extension. From what I understand, it was only reported than Harden would sign the Rockets extension of $80 after he was traded.

Harden didn't demand to be traded, it wasn't his decision. His only decision was to say no to the extension and everything else is OKCs management moves, not Hardens.


Again I would never know the feeling because I'll likely never see that kind of money in my lifetime but if RW & KD are my best friends (looks like they are) and i have a chance to win a chip with them for $55mil, I might go with them. Keep in mind that at 23years old and OKCs 4-year extension of $55mil means when he is 27/28 years old, his contract expires and he'd still be in his prime and can go for the bigger money by then.

Rockets $80mil 5-year contract is worth about $25mil for that extra year(?), I think it is safe to say that if Harden decides to part ways after that OKC 4-year extension that he can make that up by signing to another team when he is at his prime.

Money difference doesn't really seem that big if you break it down.
$13.7mil per year with OKC for 4 years
$16mil per year with HOU for 5 years.

On a per year basis, he really is just giving up ~$2,3mil per year to be with a contender, which he can likely make back on his next big contract.
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