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NBA 2014-2015 Season Thread - Page 679

post #10171 of 19255
Thread Starter 
Maybe he gets all the blame and finger pointed at him because he is getting paid a lot of money and has accomplished nothing? He couldn't lead the Knicks to a playoff spot and speaking of Knicks, that is a big market team and whoever plays for them will be magnified. Amare is suppose to bring th Knicks back to the spotlight by winning, he even stated it, guaranteed it himself. But he hasn't and Melo has gotten the same flack for it too so it's not like Amare is being singled out. The difference is that Melo is just a far better player (you can see by his MVP like game this year) and you can actually see him trying to change and actually train and workout in the off-season. It may have coincided with the Olympics so we'll see how he works during the next off season.


And you know what, you are correct that Amare will not be the last guy who doesn't rebound well for his size or can't competently defend but why is such laziness be ignored? Especially on a player who gets millions and accomplished nothing? I mean why encourage players who doesn't want keep training to improve in the off-season?


No there won't be a lot of Kobes who spends his life at the gym but there Durants and Westbrooks and even Lebrons who does have fun and party but also works on their games to improve every summer. They stay in shape and seek help to improve. That should be encouraged. Maybe by pointing out Amares flaws, fairly or unfairly, then the future generation can take note that they shouldn't try to fly by their talents alone because they are just one injury away from losing their career.
post #10172 of 19255
are you saying that Amare doesn't work out confused.gif

the guy obviously lives in a gym and god knows how restrictive his diet is, he is all muscle. Think about how many injuries he's had and how he's been out a lot, you think he'd be in that shape sitting around?

In terms of the money, something that people outside of NYC don't seem to understand is that Dolan has bottomless pockets. And he is like a schoolgirl when he likes something or someone. Would you turn down Amares contract and tell Dolan, "well, I'm not sure how healthy I'm going to be nor how succesful I'll make the team, so lets cut the contract by 20 mil". Before he arrived, the Knicks were a D League team and they were turned down by every available star. Amare signed on, brought the team back to relevance and Carmelo would not have signed with the pre-Amare Knicks. How much is that worth to a franschise? His first year here he played MVP ball and carried an awful team.

Yes, the reality is that he and Melo have accomplished nothing, but its not all on his shoulders and its not because he can't defend. And no one in NY is excusing either one of them for not winning a playoff series or even a game before last season but its not been because these guys aren't trying. Amare spent the off season with Hakeem, working on post up moves. Carmelo had the Olympics, and lost some weight. I still believe that these are two guys (along with Chandler) that can't really be succesful on the floor at the same time but that was a management decision, all they can do is go out there and play their game

Amare is a skilled but limited offensive player, that is all he has ever been. But what he does, he does extremely well. Steve Nash in his prime couldn't guard a CYO guard and no one is asking him why doesn't he improve his defense or work on becoming a lights out 3 point shooter.
post #10173 of 19255
I tend to agree with RFX here. I think the difference maker is that the NYK went after him as a free agent and he hasnt really made an impact and the team seems to have done fine without him. Unlike, say, Dallas who has been piss without Dirk.

And Nash is not 6' 10' with a body of an Adonis. Amare should own the league with that physique. Unfortunately he'll go the way of Shawn Kemp who spent his career knocking up women and fell off a cliff as soon as his physical prowess gave up.
post #10174 of 19255
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

I tend to agree with RFX here. I think the difference maker is that the NYK went after him as a free agent and he hasnt really made an impact and the team seems to have done fine without him. Unlike, say, Dallas who has been piss without Dirk.
And Nash is not 6' 10' with a body of an Adonis. Amare should own the league with that physique. Unfortunately he'll go the way of Shawn Kemp who spent his career knocking up women and fell off a cliff as soon as his physical prowess gave up.

Amare is married with four kids, I don't foresee him going the Shawn Kemp route. The point is not Nash's physique, Nash is guarding people his size, not power forwards.

He did make an impact on the team, look at his first year and that success landed them the people they have now. If Melo and Chandler were not on this team, he'd still be a 25 a game scorer. He is now somewhat irrelevant becuase of Chandler and Melo, their games do not compliment each other, that is not his fault. Amare is not owning the league because he is not needed to do that on NYK, he did need to do that with PHX.

Look, if you start comparing players to Kobe/Jordan/James, 99% of players are going to fall short. These guys are not the rule, they are the exception. That is what makes them so incredible and I think we've lost sight of that, we expect everybody to be able to do that. If Amare were the only guy not being able to post up or play D, then you'd have a point. But look at most stars in the NBA and they are usually good at one thing and that is usually something on the offensive end, there are only a handful of two way players in the league.
post #10175 of 19255
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

Amare spent the off season with Hakeem, working on post up moves.
I remember listening to Charles Barkley's reaction to this - "10 years in the league, max money NBA star, and NOW you decide to develop a post game?!" lol8[1].gif or something to that effect.

I tend to agree with you that Amare shouldn't be blamed for all the Knicks' woes or for signing a max contract. But he is still very immature, I think that's what people react to. He's also under a microscope being in New York and that's just the way it is.
post #10176 of 19255
Thread Starter 
"Working out" obviously meant keeping busy and working on your game in the off-season.

And playing like an MVP in a crappy team means nothing because well you are on a crappy team that never made the playoffs. Kobe is an MVP that carried the Lakers to the playoffs in a tough Western Conference, that is MVP in a crappy team. Kemba Walker averaging 18/3/6 & 2 stls per game isn't MVP or even All Star caliber because guess what, he is on a crappy team and no one else will score.


As for the money, no I would not turn down that money. Hell if he offers that to me right now and be a PG for them, I'll take it but be sure that I am going to work my ass off and try to be the best I could be even if the best I could do isn't even good enough for a high school team. I don't blame Amare for taking the money (heck not even blaming him for NYs crappy seasons), however his work ethic is in question. He trained with Hakeem for 2 days and then what? Party on, party on all night? Yeah he can hit the gym and run the threadmill and lift weights but at the end of the day if you aren't working like Durant and Lebron (who actually goes to each others camp and train with each other for months end long) then you aren't taking your potential to it's fullest.

Yeah these guys travel all year long during the season and that is tough and they need to rest their body but there is about 4-5 months lay-off between seasons and you can't come to the season w/o improvements and hope that your athleticism will carry you in your 30s. WHy do you think Kobe is playing his most efficient, scoring leader at his age even after countless injuries? He trains and works. Who knows where TMac or Iverson would be if those guys took practices and summer workouts seriously? If Amare worked his body, maybe he wouldn't be so injury prone? These are all "what ifs?" but it can make your body stronger, you have to work on it constantly, break apart those muscles to rebuild as stronger and better.


And as for Nash, dude has been constantly criticized for his defense, he just always in a small market teams. Read up on the worries when he was coming to LA, everyone is saying the LA D on PGs are already weak and Nash will just make it weaker. No one is covering Nash' fault on defense at all. His 3-point scoring, he can't really be lights out for his position, his job is to pass the ball and distribute and make everyone better and run around, he has to be the most active on the court and at his age, his stamina is amazing but it can still be exhausting and it takes a lot of energy to shoot from behind the arc (or at least shoot well/consistently with the right form).


It really is as simple as this, he is blaming him knowing no defense on not having a coach and I can guarran-damn-tee it that is simply untrue. Watch Laker games these days, their defensive lapses and see how pissed DAntoni is. Watch those Phoenix games and see how mad he gets on those defensive breakdowns. Dude obviously taught defensive sets and upset by not executing it. He may not be the best defensive coach but this is the NBA, defense is part of the game and you are insane to think that a coach would not teach defense on his players, even the basics. And on a player like Amare, who's tall and athletic, I'd be surprised if he didn't ask him to block more. Everyone knows he can jump out of the building and he has had years where he averaged 2 blocks a game but he isn't doing it consistently when he should.

Hey I am not a big an of DAntoni, even when he went to the Lakers, but that was obviously a cheap shot and Amare looking for an excuse on his lack of defense.
post #10177 of 19255
I understand people's reaction to Amares game, you are talking to a guy that spent many nights yelling at the TV screen at Charles Smith "You're fucking 6'10", stop playing like a small forward and dunk the fucking ball!!!!". And I also lived through Charles Oakley. But I don't understand the immaturity angle (he is a model teammate by all accounts), he works hard and this is a disfunctionally put together team, Dolan's plan has always been to put name brand stars on the floor to sell $750 tickets, team chemistry and wins were an afterthought. If D'Antoni had any say, the NYK would have looked different. If Woodson had any say, he probably wouldn't want Amare on this team.

The guy has played the game a certain way, successfully, for what, 10 years? And now people are dogging him because he candidly admitted that he never cared/thought about defense nor was he told to. And in terms of the post op, I don't disagree but there are what, like 5 post up players left in the NBA. Everything is this small ball bullshit, run up and down the court, take threes and dunks, nothing in between.
post #10178 of 19255
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

If Amare were the only guy not being able to post up or play D, then you'd have a point. But look at most stars in the NBA and they are usually good at one thing and that is usually something on the offensive end, there are only a handful of two way players in the league.

But again if you don't point that out then it will never be resolved and we'll have players that are one dimensional. HS players will think that is ok, no need for the fundamentals because they can just dunk on everyone. No one is singling Amare out, he is the point of discussion by his stupid quote so he is the one being talked about. He is being compared to other stars because that is what he is being advertised as and it is how he is getting paid. See how much crap Joe Johnson gets as the most overpaid player in the league right now? Or Rashard Lewis? Those guys get a lot of flack too but Amare is/was the franchise player of the Knicks, a giant global market team and they threw down a lot of money at him to be that star. And the Knicks has accomplished nothing on his back. So why are you surprised at the crap being thrown at him?
post #10179 of 19255
I don't understand your comment that a good player on a shitty team is not really a good player confused.gif

And we'll have to agree to disagree on Amare and as for D'Antoni, I saw him coaching up close. If he was teaching defensive sets, no one was listening. If he was so pissed when the other teams were going on 10-0 runs, he must have hid it very well because one of the criticism's against him and one that I saw first hand, was not calling timeouts when teams were running the Knicks off the floor. He looked like a deer in headlights and just sat there letting it happen. D'Antoni is not a good coach, he is mediocre at best.
post #10180 of 19255
Thread Starter 
I never said Amare is a bad player, he is a good player but he isn't the franchise player that most think he is. You said he played like an MVP in a crappy team but you can't say that when the team doesn't get to the playoffs. He is a good player in a crappy team but to say he played like an MVP when there are no other options on the team and not make the playoff isn't "MVP-like". MVP ina crappy team would be Lebron with the Cavs or Kobe with Smush and Kwame, still making the playoffs (a finals in Lebrons case with a crappy Mike Brown as a coach), those are playing like MVPs in a crappy team, not Amare playing well while the team accomplishes nothing.


As for DAntoni, everything I've said is from what I've seen, the Suns were practically the Lakers' rival a few years back so I saw them play a lot, no the Knicks with the DAntoni though. But yeah, he may not know what to do but he was upset and he shows it. He sure call a lot of timeout in the Lakers now when the Lakers gets their lapses.
post #10181 of 19255
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFX45 View Post

But again if you don't point that out then it will never be resolved and we'll have players that are one dimensional. HS players will think that is ok, no need for the fundamentals because they can just dunk on everyone. No one is singling Amare out, he is the point of discussion by his stupid quote so he is the one being talked about. He is being compared to other stars because that is what he is being advertised as and it is how he is getting paid. See how much crap Joe Johnson gets as the most overpaid player in the league right now? Or Rashard Lewis? Those guys get a lot of flack too but Amare is/was the franchise player of the Knicks, a giant global market team and they threw down a lot of money at him to be that star. And the Knicks has accomplished nothing on his back. So why are you surprised at the crap being thrown at him?

Amare is no longer the franchise player. His first year with the Knicks, when he was the franchise, he had better stats then all his years in Phoenix, except for one. The year before he arrived, the team was 29-53. The year after, they were 42-40. During the season they brought in Carmelo. One of those guys stats was going to go down as they play a similar game. So Amare went from 25 a game to 17.5 a game. He was also injured. Is 25 points a game from an injury prone player worth 20 million a year? No. Does it make him incredibly overpaid? No. The injuries, the Melo/Chandler signings, those are things he can't control and they've all led to diminished time on the court for him. And of course Melo is a better player than him, Melo has the skills to be top 2-3 in the league, if anything, Melo is a much bigger disappointment than Amare. Melo can not only be a top player, he can elevate the scrubs he plays with to make an elite team and this is the first year he is doing that.
post #10182 of 19255
ok, my last post, I promise smile.gif

Kobe and Lebron are not just MVP's, these guys are once in a generation type players. In his wettest dream, Amare can't be half the player Kobe is. 99% of the league can't. That is why he is Kobe. If you are comparing people to Kobe and Lebron, they will always come up short. Amare is a specialist and he is very good at it. Whether that makes him worth 20 million or makes him a franchise player is obviously up for discussion but if the benchmark is Kobe, then the entire league, but for 5-6 players, sucks.
post #10183 of 19255
Thread Starter 
I think Amare should be able to average in the 20s even with Melo and I believe that was expected from him. And that is what makes him overpaid.

As for the Kobe and Lebron comparison, well that is why you can't call everyone MVP and why I don't see any good player on a crappy team being an MVP or "playing like an MVP" because those are rare. Let's take Kyrie as an example, dude is a beast and averaging 22/4/6 but in a crappy team. Is that MVP caliber stat? Yes, but since he is unable to win, he isn't an "MVP" in a crappy team. If every good player in a bad team are deemed MVP then it loses it's meaning, does that make more sense? I am not sure I am conveying what I am trying to say clearly.




It's cool to keep posting, not much Knicks talk here so take advantage of it. :lol You just have to argue/put up with me until others chime in, then I'll be more quiet. biggrin.gif
post #10184 of 19255
what i really dislike about Amare is that he added that ridiculous apostrophe to his name tongue.gif
post #10185 of 19255
Thread Starter 
In other news, I think the new CBA sucks if it causes good team like the Grizz to do this:
Quote:
Sources tell Grantland.com that Memphis has "made it known in preliminary talks with other teams that Rudy Gay could be available via trade."

The Grizzlies are 20-9 and Gay leads them in scoring at 18.0 points per game. But he's set to earn $37 million in the next two seasons and the Grizz are already $4 million over the luxury tax, hence the trade rumors. Still, we'd consider the odds of a deal going down very long. Teams won't be in a hurry to pay Gay's salary and the Grizz could very well decide to just saddle up and make a run at the title this year. They'll need their best pure scorer to do that.


I mean the team isn't even Miami. LA (both teams), Brooklyn or NY when it comes to big names and giant salaries but they are still being forced to break up? Kind of sucks. I think it would be terrible to lose Gay and Memphis might as well say good bye to their playoff run if it happens.

Queue the Lakers trade talks
lol8[1].gif
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