Tailor in Shanghai - WW Chan or Daves?

I wonder if OP has made his decision.

Originally Posted by aimerix

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1. Anyone of you have tried both?
2. Which one is better and why?
3. Are the prices in both of them in the same range?
4. Are those the best two tailors in mainland China?

1. yes
2. chan, check numerous post on SF about reputation.
3. more or less similar
4. no, there are other tailors on the mainland who are also quite good.

Originally Posted by wsanford-shanghai

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4. no, there are other tailors on the mainland who are also quite good.

Agreed.
Some are not visible, especially to non-Chinese-speaking guys.

In China, it's getting the good cloth that will always be a problem. 100% import taxes take some of the blame, and the tailoring world was basically taken out of rotation after 1949. That's why there are so much of 'em in HK now, they just followed the money down south.

I use Senli in Beijing, and he makes some quite nice, full canvas suits (at least, to my untrained eye), but I've started bringing my own cloth to him, as well as pointing him to a number of resources where he could learn about more details than just the basic 2 button suit. Things like a spalla camicia,
crescent pockets, hacking pockets, different shoulder structures, etc.

It means that the government asks 100% of the value of imported fabric as tax, otherwise it cannot be brought into the country. Essentially, this will double the price of the fabric for a Chinese seller, who will not hesitate to pass it on to the end buyer.

Originally Posted by wsanford-shanghai

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4. no, there are other tailors on the mainland who are also quite good.

Ha ha! A little too subtle I think! Allow me to introduce, for all those considering Shanghai Tailors- W. Sanford in fact also has his own tailoring shop around the corner from Dave's (and from me for that matter).

Sanford, I would be very interested indeed to get your input on this matter, being in the tailoring buisiness yourself, and also having had a suit made at both... what do you think, who is best?!


These Chan vs. Dave's threads have been so lame in the past, let's see in we can hammer it out this time!

It is annoying the lack of pictures of work from Dave's, even on the website, which makes it hard to make a comparison:

http://www.tailordave.com/

Why is that? Is it a mainly Chinese clientele (who wouldn't post on these forums)? It always seems to be when I go in....in fact I've never seen another westerner in there, as oppsoed to Chan's which is overwhelmingly westerners.

I must say I like the silhouette at Dave's alot which seems derived from a British military type, with structured chest in at the waist, but I don't mean equestrian like Huntsman which I find too much. http://www.h-huntsman.com/bespoke/ (which I think is more like Chan)


The Chan suits always look very well fitted on these forums, and the workmanship excellent. However the thing that has stopped me making a decision is that I really don't like the Chan house style:

The button is always too high! And the skirt flairs out almost further than the chest! Literally a symetrical hourglass - even the Hunsman has a slight emphasis to the the top of the jacket (which compliments the natural body shape). I guess they are good business suits, but I don't think they look very stylish with those huge skirts!

What do people think of the new Kilgour silhouettes?
I really like them, but that may explain my bias:
http://www.kilgour.eu/

The lack of photo's feedback about Dave's is stopping me from going there. I am particularly scared about getting huge armholes cut there. There used to be a picture of Dave himself on the website with his arm protruding about 1/2 a foot below a heavily-padded jacket shoulder. I think you get several fittings though, so I might be able to work it out.


I have had alterations done at Dave's before, sleeves taken up on a Pual Smith Willougby - very impressive, even roped it, perfect amount of sleeve, and cost £10! I got alotof comments about how smart the jacket looked afterwards.

PS: I have another jacket in for alteration, I'll let you know how it goes.

Originally Posted by aimerix

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Hi,
what do you mean 100% import taxes?
what is being taxed at the moment?
what is the difference between imports from abroad in China and imports from China abroad? Aren´t the same tax conditions or similar?

Shanghai has a high 'luxury goods' tax, but this doesn't apply in Hong Kong, as that is still being run a little differently to the rest of China (as it has only recently been handed back from the British).

Originally Posted by aimerix

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Hi,
what do you mean 100% import taxes?
what is being taxed at the moment?
what is the difference between imports from abroad in China and imports from China abroad? Aren´t the same tax conditions or similar?

Originally Posted by aimerix

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerC View Post
It means that the government asks 100% of the value of imported fabric as tax, otherwise it cannot be brought into the country. Essentially, this will double the price of the fabric for a Chinese seller, who will not hesitate to pass it on to the end buyer.
How is that... textiles from China are flooding into the European market in very different conditions.
Who has been negotiating here?

Decadent western goods tax! Don't forget, China is a communist country not a democracy, and doesn't even let the free market dictate the value of its currency, before even go there about protectionism! But let's not get into politics.

Originally Posted by aimerix

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How is that... textiles from China are flooding into the European market in very different conditions.
Who has been negotiating here?

Without wanting to go to much into methodology of international trade negotiations, this is how it basically works.
- We assume that countries want to protect industries (= minimize competition of foreign goods) where they have a high stake (high number of jobs usually, because jobs are votes), and want to open up industries where there is an advantage to doing so (lower consumer prices for example).
- In negotiations, free trade opening (lowering or eliminating import tariffs) is usually a give-and-take barter. In other words, China (which has millions of people working in the textile and apparel industry) will try to (1) minimize the competition of foreign textile and apparel products in the Chinese market and (2) maximize exports of these products. Europe will open the apparel market because there are much less jobs involved, and it wants to play off the apparel industry versus industries where it wants to export to China (for example automotive).

Result: European textile companies find it hard to export to China, but every other car sold in China is built by a European company. On the other hand, most textile products in Europe are of Chinese origin, local players suffer and/or disappear, leaving only the ones with a special advantage vis-Ã -vis Chinese products (such as luxury/bespoke clothing, locally protected stuff such as Harris Tweed, etc.)

But even the european cars are made in China though- like VW shanghai/MG rover; same with those textile products - clothes sown in China.

I think the real reason is - bottom line multinational corporations go where labour is cheapest, they don't care about loyality to any particular country.

I personally think the reason for the import tax in China, is being communist; and the average wage in Shanghai probably £200/month -odd, the govt figure that if you can afford bespoke suit or belgian chocolate when the average man cannot afford a big mac, then you can pay a little more (especially seening is in communism people are supposed to be equal... yet there more of a chasm between the rich and poor there than in most 'capitalist' countries, though ,capitalist, society definately seems here)

this thread is filled by a bunch of 3 year olds, nice, a fresh change from the typical 12 year olds who normally posts on SF

Originally Posted by maomao1980

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this thread is filled by a bunch of 3 year olds, nice, a fresh change from the typical 12 year olds who normally posts on SF

You've got the wrong website.

Paedophiles...give me the creeps!

Originally Posted by simply_fred

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But even the european cars are made in China though- like VW shanghai
Admitted, cars maybe not the best example anymore: China also wants to protect local jobs in auto sector.

/MG rover; same with those textile products - clothes sown in China.

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MG Rover is now actually a Chinese company.

I think the real reason is - bottom line multinational corporations go where labour is cheapest, they don't care about loyality to any particular country.

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Labour is only one factor in corporate decision-making. Others connect to infrastructure, taxation structuring, labour market, potential product market, regulatory restrictions/incentives, ... You are right that MNC's are not loyal to countries, but the picture is more complex than labour cost. If it weren't, China wouldn't have 10% unemployment in the urban labour market and god knows how much in the rural areas.

I personally think the reason for the import tax in China, is being communist; and the average wage in Shanghai probably £200/month -odd, the govt figure that if you can afford bespoke suit or belgian chocolate when the average man cannot afford a big mac, then you can pay a little more (especially seening is in communism people are supposed to be equal... yet there more of a chasm between the rich and poor there than in most 'capitalist' countries, though ,capitalist, society definately seems here)

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The United States has a 300% import tariff on French cheese. Would you call them communist? It's not a strange thing to tax luxury consumption more (it's a time tested technique: you tax things that are expensive, addictive or both), and certainly not the preserve of communist countries. That said, it does mean that it is VERY hard in China to find nice suiting cloth on the market (apart from silk - they do SUPERB silk). I always go CMT these days. Then again, I don't live there full-time anymore, so I get the luxury of buying cloth in Europe.

Some interesting points, thanks.

What is CMT? Yes it is such a headache trying to get decent fabric in China, that I just pick it up i Europe, too!

If there is anyone out there who has had experience with Dave's it'd be great to hear, or even better both Dave and Chan's (and maybe Sam's too...).

Can anyone post pictures of bespoke Dave's suits so we can see the workmanship for ourselves?

The easiest way to tell is to just come to SH and see for yourself. Do the pinch test, hold the jacket up by the shoulder, take a look at the buttonholes, check out the shopkeeper's jacket, etc.

There is a rich history of tailoring in Shanghai and you will find some of the best value and attention to detail here.

The main issue with poorly tailored suits, is the customer demands the first fitting in a few days and expects to receive the completed garment in a week. In my opinion, a well made, bespoke garment require at least six weeks to properly complete, maybe four or five if you really push it.

The difficulty in procuring good cloth is that top cloth producers do not want their cloths to end up on fused garments. Fusing cloth destroys it's essence and the reputation of the mill. Furthermore, there is no name recognition for good cloth and very few people even know what "good tailoring" entails. I suppose that's why organizations like the Savile Row Bespoke Association were formed.

Which brings me to...

An event was recently hosted in SH by CBN/第一财经 and Woolmark Gold to promote high quality wool in China. CBN/第一财经 or China Business Network is the CNBC/Bloomberg of China.

They just completed production on a nine part TV series about wool production and the history of bespoke tailoring. It's something like the BBC Savile Row series. The series begins this Saturday (Nov.6) at 7.30pm on CBN/第一财经 and should be available online.

Woolmark Gold is a new quality designation awarded to only eight or so cloth mills including Dormeuil, Scabal, H&S, Reda, Taylor & Lodge, VBC, among others. The managing directors of each company were present along with Peter Ackroyd, a member of the Savile Row Bespoke Association.

I was referred by the Dormeuil China manger and invited by Woolmark to speak about bespoke tailoring in China and, in some small way, on behalf of tailors in Shanghai. I'm wearing the grey herringbone in the links below from the launch event.

Woolmark Gold Media Release
TV Series Promo
Launch Event Video
Launch Event Photos

If you come to Shanghai, Dave's, Chan and my shop are all within 10-15 minutes of each other. Take a look at each shop and judge for yourself.