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ATTN: GQgeek and other IT nerds

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
I saw Jekyll's post and saw that you had some good feedback and advice and was hoping for a bit of the same since I'm on a different point in my life. The last time I posted this type of thread I got pretty good advice and actually helped me out but would like guidance on advancing to the next level.

In my last thread it was recommended to get a help desk position/internship. I luckily landed one that payed pretty well and gave me some pretty good experience and knowledge. I left after about eight months after realizing it was a bit of a dead end and found better opportunities.

I'm about to start my fourth year of college with a degree focusing on Information Security and want to pursue a career in security.

I currently have an internship where I'm redeveloping the IT policy and rebuilding the LAN and building a new domain. It's been challenging but a great experience and I've definitely learned many things. I also do tech support things on the side but have primarily been working on admin type things.

I also have a job on campus working for a systems admin in one of the separate offices at school, he shows me some of the admin stuff he does but we've been mostly working on physical access control to prepare for the new semester.

I'm afraid of being stuck in that role of being a tech specialist - while nice it's not the goal I set for myself. It seems really hard to break into network admin and security, I had a local security firm hound me to complete an application but I never got my transcript in on time but outside of my current internship I'm not finding positions that would provide extra learning opportunities. I hope this doesn't come off as whiny but I've found and earned all of my experience while my friend with NO IT experience landed an internship at Northrop Grumman because of family connections and he gets to work on servers.

So additional background info, I took all four semesters of Cisco CCNA in high school but never took the certification exams. I'm probably a step away from being certified to repair Dell computers.

Any questions ask.
post #2 of 18
Have you looked into doing some programming maybe? That might open up some doors. I am stuck in an admin type job at the moment with a degree in embedded engineering. It seems to me for the entry level stuff in more technical fields is kinda tough at the moment. While there is a huge demand for the work, there are enough experienced guys out there that companies can ask for 3-5 years experience.
post #3 of 18
IT nerd reporting in. You're in the right area so far. You have gotten into access provisioning, IT policy and also acquired networking experience. What you may want to get into is security monitoring. That's where you have software that tracks activity and also helps setup perimeter defense. In IT security, there are a number of certifications which are highly regarded in the industry, such as SANS and CISSP, however you actually need a number of years in order to qualify. But with your experience by the time you graduate, they may have some waivers that allow you to get it. Then there's also CISA which is for auditing, for public companies, which in combination with security will land you some pretty sweet gigs. Don't worry about getting jobs in server admin, programming, setting up networks or helpdesk. That's grunt work (no offense to anyone out there) and can't get you too far. At the end of the day though, if you want to go far, you need an MBA.
post #4 of 18
Out of curiosity, what kind of classes do you take for your info. sec degree? Any relevant tech stuff or just high level policy stuff?

Also, what do you mean by you don't want to be a tech specialist? You want to work in info sec. but not do anything technical?
post #5 of 18
Thread Starter 
By tech stuff I mean I don't want to do tech support.

I have to take Computer Foresnics and Auditing, Information Defense Technologies, Security Principles, and Network Security plus the intro courses. I'd guess it'sa bit of both. My intro class was about policies, physical and network security, encrypting and decrypting messages etc.

And for the person who recommended it I don't like programming but maybe that's because my first real experience came from Java
post #6 of 18
Is network security a technical course or conceptual in nature? forensics can be very technical. Guess I'm asking if they're teaching you actual skills or just giving you a high-level idea of security/forensics/etc. If I put you in front of a poorly secured switch (lets assume it at least has a strong encrypted password) would you be able to compromise the network? My beef with IT degrees is that they often don't teach actual skills, just a bunch of theory that most people never figure out how to apply... Maybe the programs are getting better though so that's why i'm curious...

Anyway, you'd have to be pretty lucky to completely avoid doing any tech support. VPNs fall under the purview of security guys, so until you're beyond that in your career, you'll have to deal with them not working at some point, unless you luck out and get exactly the job you're looking for that sets you on just the right path. That's not such an easy thing, especially in a crappy job market.

FWIW, i don't really enjoy tech support either. I hate dealing with users. Thankfully, I am beyond it, but I did have to go through it. I wouldn't be too picky early in your career, but definitely try to start at a company that puts you directly in a security role if that's what you want to do. People tend to get pegged as a network or systems or security guy pretty fast once they start working. It's hard to combat.
post #7 of 18
You're going to have to hop around companies for a few years while you gain real life experience. While you can have all of the certs in the world and taken the best courses, you're going to have to earn a lot of trust from bosses who can't initially risk your inexperience to modify/design/support their infrastructure. Imagine the political fallout to your boss if you fuk something up. And despite all of your knowledge and expertise, the most important part of any company is to ensure secretaries can print. Sounds stupid, but secretaries will make or break you. It's all about politics, word of mouth, reputations, and not upsetting those higher up the food chain.
post #8 of 18
Going to quote a post I read of Reddit here since it seems to apply to your situation:
Quote:
Here is a post I wrote a few weeks ago to someone that basically asked the same question: I started in the infosec world 10 years ago while in my final years of college. I got a job with a security focus after about 2 years, and been there ever since. Over the years, I've also earned many different certs, including CISSP, GCIH, and GPEN. Here's the path of how I gained my knowledge over time: Configure a linux/bsd system as your home firewall/router. Do it from scratch, so no GUI config tools, dedicated firewall OSes, etc. Learn how to do port forwards, NAT. Get FTP working. Create a DMZ with an internet accessible web server. My preference is ipfilter running on FreeBSD. Play with the dsniff package, include arpspoof, dnsspoof, sshmitm, etc. Learn WHY these tools work, so take packet captures and note the differences. If you don't know tcpdump, learn it. Wireshark is great, but you should know how to digest most common (and plaintext) captures at the CLI. You don't need pretty graphics to see SYNs, ACKs, IPs, MACs, and plaintext payloads. Play with password cracking tools. John, cain and able, and others like vncrack. Passwords are one of the weakest links in security. Learn HOW each tool does its cracking, as they work in different manners. Learn VMWare. Virtual machines are incredibily useful for testing, attacking, etc. I had to dual-boot my machine 10 years ago. Now you just spin up a new VM. Learn clear-text protocols, such as HTTP, SMTP, etc. It's good knowledge to have later down the road Netcat. Learn it. Use it. It's tremendously useful. Break your own box. Install software you know is vulnerable and then attack it. Don't have your machine open to the internet while you do this. Don't worry about writing your own tools, just download sourcecode that somebody else wrote and compile it. Learn how to compile programs. Usually C programs are the most common I run into. Learn make. Learn gcc. For now, learn them just enough to use them to compile apps. In the future, you'll need to learn more and more, though. Read RFCs. They can be very difficult to read and understand, but they are the law of the land (except in M$'s eyes). Read about HTTP and SMTP, as they are plaintext and you can use netcat to experiment. Play with metasploit, nmap, etc on a continual basis, as more experience is just that....more experience. Try different modules, like the meterpreter. Play with NSE, the nmap scripting engine. Snort. Never hurts to have experience with snort. Buy a hub (NOT a switch), run your metasploit attacks, and see what it captures, triggers on, etc. Pick an attack technique and read all you can about it. SQL Injection, buffer overflows, priviledge escalation, XSS, XSRF, format string attacks, arp attacks. If the attack talks about things you don't know yet, then go learn those first. Sign up for mailing lists. Check out the lists from SecurityFocus. DON'T STOP LEARNING. That's one thing I learned very quickly. The bad guys are changing their attacks on a daily basis, and new attacks are appearing on a regular basis. If you aren't learning new things, you are already obsolete. I'm sure I'll come up with more, but this should take you a while to learn.... Enjoy!
http://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comme...g_at_a_career/ I'd go for the CCNA. I recently passed the test. It was hard, but well worth the effort. If you need help or resources, just PM me.
post #9 of 18
So you want to work in information security.

What everyone's been saying, I guess. But also, do learn some programming. Actually, learn a few different languages. Not that you'll do much programming, but it's a useful skill in that it helps you understand security flaws in software. I'd recommend learning Python, C and either Lisp or Scheme. Java and Perl are useful in that they have a significant installed base, but they're not good first languages. (Nor is C, but it's in C code that you'll see the worst exploits.)

Read Bruce Schneier's blog. Or his facebook page.

Also, check out OpenBSD. Not necessarily as a platform for anything, although it's certainly useful in that regard, but more for the culture: Read the mailing lists for a while, read some source code, etc.

And do lots of different stuff. Lots of different stuff is security-related, therefore you should do lots of different stuff. ;-)


Oh, and information security isn't all that glamorous either. It's a lot like system (or network) administration: When it works, no-one notices. When it fails, everybody notices. Good luck with that.
post #10 of 18
^ Metasploit is fucking awesome. To make the most of it you need to know how to code. Once you can, it becomes EXTREMELY powerful for developing attacks quickly and pushing them out to victims. You may just want to run backtrack4 on your laptop or something.

And with snort, you can look at all sorts of traffic that traverses your network. You need to be able to analyze raw data and at times the payloads themselves.

FWIW, I have a rack of routers, switches, and firewalls at home and a VMWare server. I've got about 30 different VMs that I use for screwing around with various things. I've spent thousands on this stuff, but get a switch, a router or two, and a vmware server like I said about.

Also, CCNA is pretty basic. Do the CCNP, even if you have no intention of being a network guy. You learn so much about routing and switching that is very important to security by doing a CCNP. The network itself is so fundamental to security that you can't be ignorant about it and while the CCNA is fine for Microsoft guys that are just working on servers and only need to know how to enter an IP address into their NIC configuration, as a security guy you need to know A LOT more.

Actually, i'd look at the new cisco security track as well. In the past they used have a good security course as part of the CCNP, but now it's been broken off into a totally separate track. You need to really understand how all this stuff works at the network level to be able to exploit it, or to understand the exploits, imo.

You're a student now so unless you're working you should have tons of time for this stuff. Take advantage of that.
post #11 of 18
Also, try to aim to get into IT consulting firms.

The experience is priceless.
post #12 of 18
just out of curiosity, and because it's relevant, what kind of IT consulting firms? and what makes the experience so priceless?
post #13 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by oman View Post
just out of curiosity, and because it's relevant, what kind of IT consulting firms?

and what makes the experience so priceless?

There are firms that do specifically IT consulting (look in your local area for those -- some of them are true gems!) but then there are also the big consulting companies: Deloit, Accenture, IBM, TEK...

It's priceless because of the scope and the depth you will achieve in each project. The more projcetsy ou do with any given firm, the more you will learn some fundamentals in how to work in the IT industry in general, what types of positions are out there/in demand/well paying (talk to coworkers for this stuff), how to market yourself better for when you want to get a "real" job, and they pay you to travel!
post #14 of 18
interesting i work for ____, which is a canadian IT consultancy what do you mean by "real job", as opposed to IT
post #15 of 18
At a consulting firm, there's more chance you'll get to do design work, or work on larger systems, or work on specific problems/projects that are too big/complex for a company's regular IT staff. You also get to see a bigger variety of environments/solutions by virtue of seeing many different clients. You also acquire knowledge about best practices. That said, you might go work for a consultancy and do nothing but new installs at small businesses, which isn't the most exciting work... That's not to say you won't get to do cool stuff if you work for a company in-house either. If you're proactive you can push for almost anything if you can make a business case for it, whether cost savings, more efficiency, reduced power consumption, business continuity in a disaster scenario, high availability, better performance, etc. It's just more dependent on luck (landing at a company that hasn't just upgraded everything or spent all their budget) and your ability to sell something to your boss. I've worked with guys from big consulting firms, and while it's probable they weren't the A team due to the size of the companies they were contracted by, they were seriously lacking. There IS a danger to starting off there in that they might put you on a very narrow track that's hard to get off of. My own opinion is that it's best to be a good generalist before you start specializing. It enables you to see more of the big picture, it makes you more flexible and adaptable, more capable of coming up with good solutions, and ultimately looks good on a resume. What gets you the big bucks is specializing though. There's no doubt about it. For security, it might be best to target a managed IT services firms, or companies tied to the financial industry, or even large ISPs and telecoms (that are selling firewall/security services with MPLS for instance). For banks especially, it's hard to get in to them if you don't start out in them. I would make as much use of on-campus recruiting as possible. Best to start off at a company with good brand recognition if possible. It makes things a lot easier.
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