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shoe construction...behind the veil - Page 67

post #991 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelonius View Post


No, not to increase profit, nothing else. GY welting may have increased speed, and changed a number of other parameters (fewer workers, less expensive leather), and increased profit for the factory owners, but the goals have shifted compared to HW shoes. The goals have shifted and therefore efficiency hasn't increased at all, because whatever the product now is (the GW shoe) it hasn't recreated by a more efficient (less energy-consuming) method the original one (the HW shoe). Energy is expensive to come by, and nature uses it as sparingly as possible.

If you understand profit...understand that it is not just a golden egg magically laid by the golden goose ...efficiency really is about profit. As much or moreso than any other factor. Because profit is the end-result of an equation that involves time, energy, and resources. Add them up and you get profit.

Time, energy, resources are the fundamental components of efficiency. All other things being equal, maximizing the utility of any one of those three components tends to increase or maximize profit. Less time expended, more profit. Less energy expended, more profit. Less or cheaper raw materials, more profit. Time+energy+resources=profit.

You can jigger the equation all you want but 2+2+2 will never equal 11.
post #992 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


If you understand profit...understand that it is not just a golden egg magically laid by the golden goose ...efficiency really is about profit. As much or moreso than any other factor. Because profit is the end-result of an equation that involves time, energy, and resources. Add them up and you get profit.

Time+energy+resources=efficiency. All other things being equal, maximizing the utility of any one of those three components tends to increase or maximize profit. Less time expended, more profit. Less energy expended, more profit. Less or cheaper raw materials, more profit. Time+energy+resources=profit.

You can jigger the equation all you want but 2+2+2 will never equal 11.


Efficiency is a term that it is useful to understand in its wider context, not just limited to financial concerns. As I said previously, in the case you cite, all other things aren't equal. The GY shoe is not the equal of the HW shoe. If it was, and the makers had found a way of making it more quickly, more cheaply, with fewer materials, then good for them. But it isn't and they haven't.

If shoe makers (HW) had found some way of making shoes more quickly, with fewer and less-expensive materials, but to the same quality, they would do so - and not just for financial gain, but because it's the natural way to go - gives you more time to go fishing or read books, and uses less valuable resources. But they haven't, apparently. Efficiency is what we call beauty in nature.

post #993 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

I thought some of those who, like me, are still fumbling with the key concepts in this thread might enjoy this video of the making of a Blake-stitched, hand-lasted shoe. No gemming! A direct leather-to-leather bond of insole and outsole! biggrin.gif

Oh, and thanks, DWF, for the great thread and the generosity with your time and knowledge.

Traditional channel stitching (done by hand) was once a well respected technique. Having done channel stitching, I understand why.



Of all the ways of putting together a shoe...aside from hand welting...I have always thought that Blake Rapid was the best machine technique. With good components rivaling hand welting and besting GY by a long shot.
post #994 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

This is all just weasel words. A rationalization for parading ignorance..

"Hand welted" is the correct terminology for inseamed to a holdfast cut into a leather insole. Although some few (thankfully few) makers hand sew the welt to gemming.

Whether the shoe is "outseamed" by hand or not has nothing to do with it.

Those who don't respect truth or knowledge...or are hell bent on creating their own magical-thinking-version of the truth...never give a damn.

In the real world there are more than one way to specify hand welted. Hand sewn welted being one of them.

Respect the nuances in different languages. You might be the only DH shoemaker here but you ain't the only bespoke shoemaker around the world.
post #995 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

If you understand profit...understand that it is not just a golden egg magically laid by the golden goose ...efficiency really is about profit. As much or moreso than any other factor. Because profit is the end-result of an equation that involves time, energy, and resources. Add them up and you get profit.

Time, energy, resources are the fundamental components of efficiency. All other things being equal, maximizing the utility of any one of those three components tends to increase or maximize profit. Less time expended, more profit. Less energy expended, more profit. Less or cheaper raw materials, more profit. Time+energy+resources=profit.

You can jigger the equation all you want but 2+2+2 will never equal 11.

Just to add, professional shoemakers, bespoke, handmade, or industrial, all try to maximize profits. So your point of profit seeking degrading product quality is null.

Unless you are making bespoke shoes, professionally, for charity.
post #996 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


Just to add, professional shoemakers, bespoke, handmade, or industrial, all try to maximize profits. So your point of profit seeking degrading product quality is null.

Unless you are making bespoke shoes, professionally, for charity.

Straw man argument.

 

Maximizing profits through the use of an inferior construction method is the discussion. You know you are wrong and yet you continue to argue. Why? You have said yourself that hand welting is the superior construction method, so why continue to skulk around the edges of the discussion making tenuously connected arguments?

 

You are very bright and contribute a lot to other threads, which is why your fixation on this topic vexes me...

post #997 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


you ain't the only bespoke shoemaker around the world.

You're not among them. So you're talking through your ass.
post #998 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdavro23 View Post

Straw man argument.

Maximizing profits through the use of an inferior construction method is the discussion. You know you are wrong and yet you continue to argue. Why? You have said yourself that hand welting is the superior construction method, so why continue to skulk around the edges of the discussion making tenuously connected arguments?

You are very bright and contribute a lot to other threads, which is why your fixation on this topic vexes me...

Because people do need to pay huge respect for industrial shoemakers and it benefits everyone to understand the nuances in gy shoemaking. And despite DWF's effort to equating everything non leather inferior, different industrial shoemakers use very different insole, KP, liners, etc.

And this thread is about shoemaking behind the veil, not bashing gy welts thread.

Whatevers. DW can always exercises his DH status, write his own bible, and turn oblivious to the GYW world.

Learning the different degrees of inferiority of GYW world might be interesting to the intellectually curious few.
post #999 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Just to add, professional shoemakers, bespoke, handmade, or industrial, all try to maximize profits. So your point of profit seeking degrading product quality is null.

Unless you are making bespoke shoes, professionally, for charity.

We all seek profit...up to a point. We don't all seek to maximize profit. It is a matter of what is "Job One"....as I have said many times.

If you make profit job one, all other decisions follow and are dependent on that goal. All other decisions.

If you make quality job one, you will never choose to use gemming or buy a cheaper , thinner insole or make your toe stiffeners out of celastic or your heel stacks out of compressed plant fibers (paperboard). Never.

At which point, profit becomes incidental and not predictive.
post #1000 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Learning the different degrees of inferiority of GYW world might be interesting to the intellectually curious few.

Not being intellectually curious is nearly the hallmark of ignorance.

The few...the proud...the curious. Count me in.
post #1001 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

You're not among them. So you're talking through your ass.

I don't correct shoemakers terminology during conversations; I respect what they called their craft.

Maybe you have a strategy and agenda in unifying all shoemaking terminologies, I don't.
post #1002 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Traditional channel stitching (done by hand) was once a well respected technique. Having done channel stitching, I understand why.



Of all the ways of putting together a shoe...aside from hand welting...I have always thought that Blake Rapid was the best machine technique. With good components rivaling hand welting and besting GY by a long shot.

Thanks, DWF. What's your opinion about Blake with no Rapid stitching and no midsole? How does it stack up against GY in terms of durability? Some fear that it's more prone than GY to letting water and other rot- and crack- inducing materials into the footbed, because those can penetrate through the stiches in the outsole and insole into the footbed, as can't happen with GY. Does that make it less durable than GY?
Edited by Testudo_Aubreii - 2/3/16 at 9:18am
post #1003 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

We all seek profit...up to a point. We don't all seek to maximize profit. It is a matter of what is "Job One"....as I have said many times.

If you make profit job one, all other decisions follow and are dependent on that goal. All other decisions.

If you make quality job one, you will never choose to use gemming or buy a cheaper , thinner insole or make your toe stiffeners out of celastic or your heel stacks out of compressed plant fibers (paperboard). Never.

At which point, profit becomes incidental and not predictive.

Would be sad to frame a world view of only black or white, quality or profit.

Not all GYW makers uses paperboard heel stack, celastica for stiffeners, or paper board insole. And sone uses cork sheet, some uses cork paste, and some overlay silicon gel for fillers. 50 shades of GYW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Not being intellectually curious is nearly the hallmark of ignorance.

The few...the proud...the curious. Count me in.

The improvements in material science now creates adhesives/glues used for jet planes. What's your opinion of using similar strong adhesives for gemming?
post #1004 of 1515

"What's wrong with glue, anyway?" :rotflmao: 

Apart from the environmental effects.........

post #1005 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

I don't correct shoemakers terminology during conversations; I respect what they called their craft.

Maybe you have a strategy and agenda in unifying all shoemaking terminologies, I don't.

But you do correct shoemakers...it wasn't so long ago that you took me to task for something...related to English welting.

As for my strategy, As much as possible, I use the lexicon that shoemakers have evolved over 10,000 years for the same reason every profession has it's unique terminology. Because shoemaking is the subject. Because, generally speaking shoemakers understand each other.

It's simply lazy and another example of your incurious approach. "You know nothing, Jon Snow." And yet you presume to lecture.

When a person is as incurious as you admit you are, or pretends to a knowledge that he doesn't have, he loses all cred in my book.
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