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shoe construction...behind the veil - Page 62

post #916 of 1514
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Actually it is plastic--it is acetate over fiber glass fabric or other fabric.. In fact the earliest versions were made of old discarded movie film and burlap. Anything that is activated by heat or, esp., solved in acetone is nearly by definition plastic.

It is also crushable and unable...short of extraordinary measures...to be restored.

--

 

Celastic has good elasticity while being stiff.  Heat activated puffs are a lot more bouncy.

 

Neither behaves like those plastic bucket that gets brittle under the sun that you used as an example.

post #917 of 1514
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

I recall reading a post a while back from the owner of Oakstreet Bootmakers, a comment that Celastic is actually no longer in use. That thread has since been deleted, so I can't go back and re-read the comment. I also remember something about the safety of the material having something to do with it being phased out/replaced.

Not that it really matters to this conversation on the occlussive nature of "plastic" stiffeners, which are obviously being increasingly used.

Anyone know?

Plastics are, by definition, occlusive. Whether there is enough area occluded to make a difference, I can't really say. For me, the less occlusion the better. The better I feel about the work and the shoes that result.

I don't think there is any rationale for using celastic, or plastic...or anything but leather...esp. in a bespoke shop. If nothing else, even the big boys generate some scrap from insole leather or even something like box calf (I've seen it done) that can be used as a toe box. This is material that has been paid for and is already under the bench, so to speak. So buying pre-made toe and heel stiffeners or even celastic is an extra expense. The only thing it saves is time and having to find or train someone in the skills to make a leather toe stiffener.

It's another one of those answers to questions that never needed to be asked. Leather toe and heel stiffeners have everything to recommend them and nothing except the need for time and skill to detract. That and an almost morbid fascination with the "new" and the "shiney"--it's that magpie eye I've talked about in the past.
post #918 of 1514
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Celastic has good elasticity while being stiff.  Heat activated puffs are a lot more bouncy.

Neither behaves like those plastic bucket that gets brittle under the sun that you used as an example.

And you know this how? I have personally seen and dealt, first hand, with crushed celastic toe and heel stiffs and broken plastic toe and heel stiffeners.
post #919 of 1514
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

And you know this how? I have personally seen and dealt, first hand, with crushed celastic toe and heel stiffs and broken plastic toe and heel stiffeners.

Shoe factory visits.
post #920 of 1514
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

I have a shoe with several deep scratches. The scratch pierces the leather entirely in a very small spot and exposes the lining. The rest of the scratches are not that deep. I am considering having them patched. Would someone who has done this explain, in general terms, how a patch is done and what are the issues going forward. They are black calf, so I assume a reasonable match is possible though it will be visible and I will need to keep them polished pretty well for them to look decent. The scratches are on the instep on the lateral side. Like Nixon, I was wearing black oxfords on the beach but, unlike Nixon (I assume) it was at night and I walked into a rock.
I am going to bump this in case it has been missed. Apologies if that is not the case.
post #921 of 1514
Quote:
Originally Posted by VRaivio View Post

Alright, I am in the midst of a shoe debate on another forum. What does Styleforum say: will plastic toe and heel stiffeners make leather shoes less breathable, more occlusive, so on?

You debate shoe construction on another forum?

eek.gif
post #922 of 1514
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Shoe factory visits.

Oh great! So you swallow the hook line and sinker of the Hype and self-interested promotional BS put out by the biggest users of plastic and celastic rather than think or experience for yourself.

MM Fireworks 1.0
post #923 of 1514
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

I am going to bump this in case it has been missed. Apologies if that is not the case.

It can be jump stitched and be very inconspicuous. Or patched and always be an obvious patch. Take it to a repair.
post #924 of 1514
Thank you. What is "jump stitched"? I googled it and the descriptions seemed to be for embroidery.
post #925 of 1514
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

Thank you. What is "jump stitched"? I googled it and the descriptions seemed to be for embroidery.

It is a specialized stitch where the needle enters on one side of a tear or a seam, jumps to the other side diagonally and then back to the beginning side again, diagonally. This process goes to the bottom of the tear and then back to the top. Then a line of stitching is run right down the middle that tightens everything up. It could be loosely called a double zig-zag.

I use something that is done a little differently but looks exactly the same when done, to close up curved backseams that will be covered with a stay. I think emptym posted a photo or two of his George boots in construction and the back seam was shown.

Mind, as a repair, a jumpstitch is not entirely waterproof...not as waterproof as a patch. But, done fastidiously, it is nearly invisible on black.
post #926 of 1514
Thank you, DW.
post #927 of 1514
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

Thank you, DW.

Yr. Hmb.Svt.

cheers.gif
post #928 of 1514
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Oh great! So you swallow the hook line and sinker of the Hype and self-interested promotional BS put out by the biggest users of plastic and celastic rather than think or experience for yourself.

MM Fireworks 1.0

 

I am intellectually curious and open minded about manufacturing materials.  The truth is manufacturing material standards are constantly improving alone with material science.

post #929 of 1514
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

I am intellectually curious and open minded about manufacturing materials.  The truth is manufacturing material standards are constantly improving alone with material science.

Ha! If you really were and if you really knew anything about Traditional materials and techniques, you wouldn't be bought in. All in.

Think about it...what do you expect a factory employee, much less an owner to say?

"Oh, Mr. Chogall, we know that plastic stiffeners are not even approaching the same quality and functionality and reliability of Traditional leather stiffeners but they're cheap and 99% of the untutored and oblivious public aren't going to care or notice what their shoes are made of or how. So it doesn't profit us to try to educate them or even offer them quality esp. hidden quality. Besides we sell plenty just the way they are, so why should we care?"

Good luck on that one and welcome to life as a mark.
post #930 of 1514
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Ha! If you really were and if you really knew anything about Traditional materials and techniques, you wouldn't be bought in. All in.

Think about it...what do you expect a factory employee, much less an owner to say?

"Oh, Mr. Chogall, we know that plastic stiffeners are not even approaching the same quality and functionality and reliability of Traditional leather stiffeners but they're cheap and 99% of the untutored and oblivious public aren't going to care or notice what their shoes are made of or how. So it doesn't profit us to try to educate them or even offer them quality esp. hidden quality. Besides we sell plenty just the way they are, so why should we care?"

Good luck on that one and welcome to life as a mark.

 

If you've actually read what I've posted, I have not said anything with celastic or other variations of KP replacing leathers stiffeners for bespoke/traditional shoemaking.

 

All I am stating are: there are many more variations of celastic or other man made stiffener materials, and it is unwise to group them all together as "plastic" and claim that they become brittle and fall apart under the sun like a plastic bucket does.

 

After all, for plastics along there are already a lot of different varieties and uses, let along the many types of non-woven clothes and leather scraps used for celastic.

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