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shoe construction...behind the veil - Page 61

post #901 of 1515

Thanks@VRaivio, I never condition my soles, but I have 1 L of lexol conditioner so I will give myself a chance and see.:fonz:

post #902 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapasman View Post

I know this issue has been discussed pretty much:  the heel does not sit completely flat on the ground.  In my case is the back of the heel. 

I just wanted to say that the experience while waking is not good at all, but maybe is because the outsoles are very stiff.

I will see with time and wear.

It is my firmly held opinion that not everything is as it should be when I see a heel like that. As you say we have discussed this before so in the absence of further inquiry I will not repeat the possible reasons that this occurs.

However, the good news is that that amount of "heel spring" is not ordinarily a problem. Some manufacturers consider it a "feature." If you are feeling a lot of localized pressure/pain under foot, several inches ahead of the back of the heel, then it may turn out to be a problem.

As for the outsole...outsoles are meant to be stiff and it looks like you have a midsole as well (could be just the photo). Vegetable tannage and "rolling" (compression of the fibers)...which is the way outsoling is made...is intended to make it not only stiff, but stiffer and firmer than it would naturally be.

And FWIW, to the degree that the outsole is soft...or made softer by applications of conditioners and so forth, the leather is going to wear faster.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 11/4/15 at 6:54am
post #903 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapasman View Post
 

I know this issue has been discussed pretty much:  the heel does not sit completely flat on the ground.  In my case is the back of the heel. 

 

I just wanted to say that the experience while waking is not good at all, but maybe is because the outsoles are very stiff.

 

I will see with time and wear.


Are these Meermin shoes?

post #904 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


It is my firmly held opinion that not everything is as it should be when I see a heel like that. As you say we have discussed this before so in the absence of further inquiry I will not repeat the possible reasons that this occurs.

However, the good news is that that amount of "heel spring" is not ordinarily a problem. Some manufacturers consider it a "feature." If you are feeling a lot of localized pressure/pain under foot, several inches ahead of the back of the heel, then it may turn out to be a problem.

As for the outsole...outsoles are meant to be stiff and it looks like you have a midsole as well (could be just the photo). Vegetable tannage and "rolling" (compression of the fibers)...which is the way outsoling is made...is intended to make it not only stiff, but stiffer and firmer than it would naturally be.

And FWIW, to the degree that the outsole is soft...or made softer by applications of conditioners and so forth, the leather is going to wear faster.

edited for punctuation and clarity

I have read all what different makers stated about the issue and this is my experience. First the shoe touches the ground with the back edge of the heel, second the shoe sits just on the heel and  finally, the shoe sits with the outsole and the front edge of the heel.  It is like you walk in a sequences of three movements instead of two (I am not sure if I am clear enough).  

 

I do not suffer neither pressure nor pain DW, but the walking is very unpleasant.

 

PS.-I will keep my Lexol on the shelves just for upper conditioning.:lookaround:

post #905 of 1515
Alright, I am in the midst of a shoe debate on another forum. What does Styleforum say: will plastic toe and heel stiffeners make leather shoes less breathable, more occlusive, so on?
post #906 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by VRaivio View Post

Alright, I am in the midst of a shoe debate on another forum. What does Styleforum say: will plastic toe and heel stiffeners make leather shoes less breathable, more occlusive, so on?

 

It does.  But does it matter?

post #907 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VRaivio View Post

Alright, I am in the midst of a shoe debate on another forum. What does Styleforum say: will plastic toe and heel stiffeners make leather shoes less breathable, more occlusive, so on?

Yes, they will . Whether it is significant enough for a customer, or any other untutored player, to care is another question (a shoemaker would and/or should).

However, the fact that the maker resorted to plastic suggests that other short cuts and expediencies are "rule of thumb" rather than "exceptions to the rule."
post #908 of 1515
I have a shoe with several deep scratches. The scratch pierces the leather entirely in a very small spot and exposes the lining. The rest of the scratches are not that deep. I am considering having them patched. Would someone who has done this explain, in general terms, how a patch is done and what are the issues going forward. They are black calf, so I assume a reasonable match is possible though it will be visible and I will need to keep them polished pretty well for them to look decent. The scratches are on the instep on the lateral side. Like Nixon, I was wearing black oxfords on the beach but, unlike Nixon (I assume) it was at night and I walked into a rock.
post #909 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Yes, they will . Whether it is significant enough for a customer, or any other untutored player, to care is another question (a shoemaker would and/or should).

However, the fact that the maker resorted to plastic suggests that other short cuts and expediencies are "rule of thumb" rather than "exceptions to the rule."

Any difference in longevity between cellastic/plastic and leather? Or initial and long term comfort? TIA
post #910 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrybrowne View Post

Any difference in longevity between cellastic/plastic and leather? Or initial and long term comfort? TIA

Many would say not, although I suspect that's "short term thinking." Without getting too technical, there is an ion exchange or something--damage that occurs due to ultraviolet light and plastic does break down--even when protected by a layer of leather. Think of that old bucket or the plastic wading pool you left laying out in the sun all last summer. I bet if you poked it with a stick it would crack and break up into fragments.

I have seen shoes and boots where the plastic toe stiffener (and particularly the heel stiffener) is in pieces. Sure, they've maybe been hit or impacted, but leather toe and heel stiffeners will not do that.

It's also worth noting that if a plastic or celastic stiffener is broken or crushed, it's done. Crush a leather toe stiffener and it may be moistened and pushed back out to the original dimensions. When dry, it will often be good as new.

--
post #911 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Many would say not, although I suspect that's "short term thinking." Without getting too technical, there is an ion exchange or something--damage that occurs due to ultraviolet light and plastic does break down--even when protected by a layer of leather. Think of that old bucket or the plastic wading pool you left laying out in the sun all last summer. I bet if you poked it with a stick it would crack and break up into fragments.

I have seen shoes and boots where the plastic toe stiffener (and particularly the heel stiffener) is in pieces. Sure, they've maybe been hit or impacted, but leather toe and heel stiffeners will not do that.

It's also worth noting that if a plastic or celastic stiffener is broken or crushed, it's done. Crush a leather toe stiffener and it may be moistened and pushed back out to the original dimensions. When dry, it will often be good as new.

--

 

Celastic isn't exactly plastic and is impact resistance with good bonding memory.  There are many varieties of KP, some are activated w/ acetone and some are activated with heat.

post #912 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by VRaivio View Post

Alright, I am in the midst of a shoe debate on another forum. What does Styleforum say: will plastic toe and heel stiffeners make leather shoes less breathable, more occlusive, so on?

 

Lets say 66% of the shoe area are covered w/ upper leather and 34% bottom. 

Assuming the upper with pure leather is 50% occlusive and bottom is 60% occlusive, then a typical shoes is about 53.4% occlusive.

 

And the stiffeners covers, say, 20% of the upper area and celastic/KP is 100% occlusive.

Then the combined occlusion of the system is .66x.8x.5 + .66x.20x1 + .34x.6 = 60% occlusive.

 

You could make the model more intricate by factoring in the topline shoe openings, using more accurate measurements, etc.  Celastic/KP will make shoes less breathable but it makes no damn difference IME for my feet..

post #913 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Celastic isn't exactly plastic and is impact resistance with good bonding memory.  There are many varieties of KP, some are activated w/ acetone and some are activated with heat.

Actually it is plastic--it is acetate over fiber glass fabric or other fabric.. In fact the earliest versions were made of old discarded movie film and burlap. Anything that is activated by heat or, esp., solved in acetone is nearly by definition plastic.

It is also crushable and unable...short of extraordinary measures...to be restored.

--
Edited by DWFII - 11/5/15 at 10:06am
post #914 of 1515
I recall reading a post a while back from the owner of Oakstreet Bootmakers, a comment that Celastic is actually no longer in use. That thread has since been deleted, so I can't go back and re-read the comment. I also remember something about the safety of the material having something to do with it being phased out/replaced.

Not that it really matters to this conversation on the occlussive nature of "plastic" stiffeners, which are obviously being increasingly used.

Anyone know?
post #915 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

I recall reading a post a while back from the owner of Oakstreet Bootmakers, a comment that Celastic is actually no longer in use. That thread has since been deleted, so I can't go back and re-read the comment. I also remember something about the safety of the material having something to do with it being phased out/replaced.

Not that it really matters to this conversation on the occlussive nature of "plastic" stiffeners, which are obviously being increasingly used.

Anyone know?

 

Don't think so.  Material sciences are constantly improving and evolving (aka no more movie films as @DWFII suggested).  Manufacturers might have moved from acetone activated celastic to heat activated or other manufacturing materials.  It's akin to the BPA scare several years ago; nowadays all those plastic water bottles are labeled BPA free, but basically the same thing except 'safer'.

 

Non-woven cloths are routinely used in shoe upper lining/reinforcement as well, and you can be damn sure those wont be organic cotton.

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