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shoe construction...behind the veil - Page 7

post #91 of 137
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrix View Post

I'm not a snob. I don't care about Meermin or EG or any other shoe brand that i'm not going to buy from. I have gemmed shoes, I have handwelted. I'm not going to throw out my gemmed ones.
It's also not about saying "this shoe is better than that shoe". But if someone asks to compare the construction of two different shoe brands, do you want me to ignore the fact that one is gemmed? Would you expect that I just leave out this piece of information to appease the people that can't bear to think that there's anything inferior about the shoes they like/own?
This is a forum in which we have some very knowledgeable tailors who have gone to lengths to dissect suits and compare construction. Should we ignore what they say because someone likes their RLPL suit? Should the truth make that person suddenly not like their suit as much?
One method is better. No debate. Reality.

This is the most objective, rational, and admirable response on this subject I've seen on this board.

When I started posting on shoe construction (this thread among others) I always thought that the information would be welcomed. Here were connoisseurs. Here were people who appreciated and respected fine work and dedication and were themselves engaged in the pursuit of excellence. It wasn't about dissing any brand (I've studiously...maybe even aggravatingly...refused to name brands). It was just about understanding and the belief that knowledge is a nostrum for ignorance; that knowledge is indeed power.

Silly me.
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Edited by DWFII - 6/27/12 at 6:52am
post #92 of 137
I loves me some gemmed shoes.
post #93 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrix View Post

^One method is better. No debate. Reality.

but who has argued that confused.gif

I haven't followed every post on this matter but I don't recall someone saying that strictly on a construction basis, GY is better than HW. I can see someone saying, "EG is better than Carmina" from the persepective of the whole shoe (last, leather, fit, looks etc), but this is a subjective measure and I don't recall someone saying that goodyear was superior to hand welting. I have heard people argue the notion that their GY shoes will come apart because of the gemming, which is understandable because that is not a common occurence, particularly for people who own multiple GY shoes.
post #94 of 137
How do you get hand welted shoes re-soled? I would assume you have to send them back to the maker, correct?
post #95 of 137
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KObalto View Post

How do you get hand welted shoes re-soled? I would assume you have to send them back to the maker, correct?

No.

That would indeed be the best case scenario for gemmed shoes.

But any really competent shoe repair can resole a hand welted shoe with virtually no chance of distortion or "resizing" (of course "really competent" is the key in all cases).
post #96 of 137
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

but who has argued that confused.gif
I haven't followed every post on this matter but I don't recall someone saying that strictly on a construction basis, GY is better than HW. I can see someone saying, "EG is better than Carmina" from the persepective of the whole shoe (last, leather, fit, looks etc), but this is a subjective measure and I don't recall someone saying that goodyear was superior to hand welting. I have heard people argue the notion that their GY shoes will come apart because of the gemming, which is understandable because that is not a common occurence, particularly for people who own multiple GY shoes.

Oh, it's been argued.

But you're correct, a rational person couldn't argue that GY is better than hand welted. (On the other hand, not everyone is rational. I've seen posts which suggested that getting a good box was more important than quality of construction in the shoe)

That said there's been plenty of dissing of the evidence (if that's not a form of arguing I don't know what is) and dismissing of the implications for secondary materials and techniques associated with GY. For instance, it is almost inevitable (never seen a contrary example) that when a maker switches from HW to GY, the quality of the insole will be downgraded--either to a thinner and/or cheaper leather or to a synthetic such as leatherboard or fiberboard. And from thinner insoles to synthetic toe stiffeners and heel stiffeners and leatherboard heel stacks.

And not only is all this acceptable, it is even defended as being modern and technologically advanced.

And everything else primitive, naive, and generally backward and wrong-headed.

And the sad thing...from some perspectives, maybe...is that there are more who discount information than value it.

Which is why every shoemaker who has ever come to this board has walked away. You hit that wall of indifference and irrationality and you quickly realize that contrary to your most optimistic hopes, Style Forum has more to do (not entirely mind you) with, well, "style"-- the superficial-- than substance.

After a while, the only sources that remain are shoe groupies and brand whores.
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Edited by DWFII - 6/27/12 at 8:00am
post #97 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Oh, it's been argued.
But you're correct, a rational person couldn't argue that GY is better than hand welted. (On the other hand, not everyone is rational. I've seen posts which suggested that getting a good box was more important than quality of construction in the shoe)
That said there's been plenty of dissing of the evidence (if that's not a form of arguing I don't know what is) and dismissing of the implications for secondary materials and techniques associated with GY. For instance, it is almost inevitable (never seen a contrary example) that when a maker switches from HW to GY, the quality of the insole will be downgraded--either to a thinner and/or cheaper leather or to a synthetic such as leatherboard or fiberboard. And from thinner insoles to synthetic toe stiffeners and heel stiffeners and leatherboard heel stacks.
And not only is all this acceptable, it is even defended as being modern and technologically advanced.
And everything else primitive, naive, and generally backward and wrong-headed.

Well DW, I don't want to start this whole thing all over again and I am definitely not here for a "gotcha" moment. All the posts that I read in this thread were complimentary, unless I missed something. I think for the most part people here want more, not less, information but at the end of the day, clothing is very subjective and past a certain baseline level of quality/construction, most people here are going to buy what appeals to their eyes (or what appeals to their peers, like the current double monk fad). Doesn't mean they are not appreciative of the information someone like you provides (which is better than 99% of the posters here, including myself) but teaching is one thing, and preaching is another. At the end of the day, Edward Green, Gaziano and Girling, Carmina etc are going to be much more popular and "better" (not from the construction perspective) than handwelted bespoke for 99.5% of the population here, for a multitude of reasons, from shoeboxes to availability to sale prices to fanboyism to looks. Still appreciate the knowledge of the few legitimate craftsmen like yourself that populate the forum.
post #98 of 137
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

Well DW, I don't want to start this whole thing all over again and I am definitely not here for a "gotcha" moment. All the posts that I read in this thread were complimentary, unless I missed something. I think for the most part people here want more, not less, information but at the end of the day, clothing is very subjective and past a certain baseline level of quality/construction, most people here are going to buy what appeals to their eyes (or what appeals to their peers, like the current double monk fad). Doesn't mean they are not appreciative of the information someone like you provides (which is better than 99% of the posters here, including myself) but teaching is one thing, and preaching is another. At the end of the day, Edward Green, Gaziano and Girling, Carmina etc are going to be much more popular and "better" (not from the construction perspective) than handwelted bespoke for 99.5% of the population here, for a multitude of reasons, from shoeboxes to availability to sale prices to fanboyism to looks. Still appreciate the knowledge of the few legitimate craftsmen like yourself that populate the forum.

It's always teaching to those open-minded and willing to learn; and always preaching to those who are not.

Beyond that, I guess there's a feedback loop. I get testy when shoe groupies and out and out ignorant people ("ignorant" means lacking knowledge, it is not a comment about stupidity unless ignorance is deliberately embraced) tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about. I don't know much about anything but shoemaking, but I do know shoemaking.
post #99 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

Nope. Goodyear and gemmed.
FYI - ALL English RTW shoes which are goodyear welted are gemmed. Handwelted is strictly the domain of some MTO and bespoke amongst all of the English shoe makers.
The same is true for the Spanish, ie: Carmina and Meermin.

Meermin makes a pretty big deal about their linea maestro line being handwelted. Do you have anything to show that these are in fact gemmed and GY welted
post #100 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadcammer View Post

Meermin makes a pretty big deal about their linea maestro line being handwelted. Do you have anything to show that these are in fact gemmed and GY welted

Meermin's Linea Maestro is hand welted. Their regular line is not. It is Goodyear welted.

I'm not aware of anyone who offers a RTW, goodyear welted, shoe that is not gemmed. That is not to say that there might not be the rare exception - but it would be rare indeed.
post #101 of 137
I loves me some gemming. And a good box.
post #102 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

Meermin's Linea Maestro is hand welted. Their regular line is not. It is Goodyear welted.
I'm not aware of anyone who offers a RTW, goodyear welted, shoe that is not gemmed. That is not to say that there might not be the rare exception - but it would be rare indeed.

Just terminology

Meermin call the "Linea Maestro" hand welted goodyear which is very misleading as the goodyear machine is probably not used to attach the welt since such a machine would have difficulty catching the very shallow carved holdfast. My understanding is that the goodyear machine is designed for a taller rib hence the modern canvass gemming(or previously the much deeper cut lateral leather flap). Perhaps DWFII or someone with hands on knowledge can chime in. Is there a machine that can deal with a shallow leather Holdfast???

You could handwelt a shoe that has gemming (seperate attached rib, usually canvas) but that would be pointless and wouldn't bring anything extra to the table.

Regardless of all this, Linea Maestro is RTW and so is Vass and both have a carved leather holdfast but someone may mistakingly refer to them as hand welted goodyear.


Hypothetical Question to the experts: What about using a quality leather insole and stitching a leather welt type strip to the insole (in place of holdfast) of the same approximate dimension as canvas rib. This leather rib would then serve to attached ussual welt and upper which the goodyear welter could handle? I am thinking this could be a superior alternative in a factory setting which solves the problems of glue/canvas cloth failure since it is all leather and mechanically joined(stitched) yet still quickly executed.
post #103 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenon View Post

Just terminology
Meermin call the "Linea Maestro" hand welted goodyear which is very misleading as the goodyear machine is probably not used to attach the welt since such a machine would have difficulty catching the very shallow carved holdfast. My understanding is that the goodyear machine is designed for a taller rib hence the modern canvass gemming(or previously the much deeper cut lateral leather flap). Perhaps DWFII or someone with hands on knowledge can chime in. Is there a machine that can deal with a shallow leather Holdfast???
You could handwelt a shoe that has gemming (seperate attached rib, usually canvas) but that would be pointless and wouldn't bring anything extra to the table.

Regardless of all this, Linea Maestro is RTW and so is Vass and both have a carved leather holdfast but someone may mistakingly refer to them as hand welted goodyear.

Yes the terminology is confusing. Even for hand welted shoes some use the term 'goodyear' to describe the handwelting method which looks something like this.

259

In my mind this is a less than satisfactory description. As to use the term 'Goodyear welted' means MACHINE Goodyear welted in my mind.
post #104 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post


Although I've not seen any examples which I would actually wear. As the only examples I've seen on the forums look remarkably unshapely and poorly detailed.
Vass does indeed offer an incredible value for a handwelted (and pegged) shoe. They are currently increasing production and opening a new retail store. I hope that the increased pressures of commercial success do not cause them to start taking shortcuts.

 

Standardized Last shape is easier to fix.  A good example is DC Lewis, which outsources to Taiwan/Vietnam.

 

Non bespoke, last doesnt have to be first.

post #105 of 137
A question for DWF, or anyone else who may know... does a shoe with a pegged waist indicate that the remainder of the welt/sole attachment is hand-done?
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