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shoe construction...behind the veil - Page 86

post #1276 of 1515

I am sure this has been answered but I couldn't see it. How does one go about re-soling a handwelted shoe in a country like the UK where goodyear is king? Is it a case of sending back to the manufacturer in all cases? Could be costly, even accounting for the fact that someone who buys a handwelted shoe is likely to have ample funds.

Fantastic thread btw. Can't put it down.

post #1277 of 1515

It is a shame that the preceding discussion about the costs and skills of shoe making by BR versus GY is completely devoid of any factual, objective information that could inform on this question. The only source of such information would be some impartial shoe maker who has experience of both techniques who could contribute something concrete.

post #1278 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelonius View Post

It is a shame that the preceding discussion about the costs and skills of shoe making by BR versus GY is completely devoid of any factual, objective information that could inform on this question. The only source of such information would be some impartial shoe maker who has experience of both techniques who could contribute something concrete.

Well, why don't you add some? Because all your comments to date have been as devoid of substance...moreso, IMO, as any other.

Kind of begs the question ..."compared to what?"

I have sewn shoes with a McKay--the machine that does Blake and Blake-Rapid. How about you? And I have even done a variation of B-R. This was years and years ago.

Currently, I do not own a McKay machine and feel no compulsion to. But I do "channel stitching" which is Blake by hand. I like it and I do it well. And I understand the principles involved.

Thing that kills me about posts such as these is that while I have never claimed to be a master shoemaker or even to know everything that there is to know about shoemaking...maybe, as the old saying goes "I'll have to do til a real one comes along."

Waiting....waiting...waiting....

--
Edited by DWFII - 2/9/16 at 1:10pm
post #1279 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrock View Post

I am sure this has been answered but I couldn't see it. How does one go about re-soling a handwelted shoe in a country like the UK where goodyear is king? Is it a case of sending back to the manufacturer in all cases? Could be costly, even accounting for the fact that someone who buys a handwelted shoe is likely to have ample funds.


Fantastic thread btw. Can't put it down.

Shouldn't be a problem...that's the beauty of HW--it evolved to be able to be resoled repeatedly, maybe even indefinitely, with minimal fuss or bother. Even by cobblers and repair men that aren't intimately and personally conversant with HW.
post #1280 of 1515
I' LL add my two cents. My bespoke shoemaker, makes shoes by hand at home, mostly in his spare time, as he loves make shoes but also like the security of his day job, a very sought after shoe model/pattern maker for a top factory near Naples that makes shoes for Many top brands, including a well known French luxury group.
He has also a vast experience with many other factories around the Campania region, and basically good year machines are not readily available across the factories there; I think one place has one or two machine. I also learned that this place uses pre cut/prepared insoles for Good Year, and not a genmed insole with fabric.

Edit: BTW in Italy to explain handwelting is often described as "Good Year" by hand
post #1281 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcodalondra View Post

He has also a vast experience with many other factories around the Campania region, and basically good year machines are not readily available across the factories there; I think one place has one or two machine. I also learned that this place uses pre cut/prepared insoles for Good Year, and not a genmed insole with fabric.

Edit: BTW in Italy to explain handwelting is often described as "Good Year" by hand

Very interesting, marco. Thanks. So does this factory in Campania use the cut-and-turn method of Goodyear instead of gemming? That would undermine JM Weston's claim to be the only manufacturer that still uses it.
post #1282 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

Very interesting, marco. Thanks. So does this factory in Campania use the cut-and-turn method of Goodyear instead of gemming? That would undermine JM Weston's claim to be the only manufacturer that still uses it.
Yes, they buy the insole already cut and turned. I had to explain to him gemming for 10 minutes and then googled a picture on my phone and show it to him for him to say something like, "yeh, I have seen those, but the factory I know use the all leather ones..."
post #1283 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Well, why don't you add some? Because all your comments to date have been as devoid of substance...moreso, IMO, as any other.

--

The attitude around here is rather similar to those of men who show up at a soup kitchen and complain about the seasoning.

I am grateful for the "free soup" here.

Men just can't understand that buying a lot of shoes doesn't make one an expert at anything and counts for little. I freely admit that my shoe buying doesn't make me special; it is recreation.

edited for typos
post #1284 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcodalondra View Post

Yes, they buy the insole already cut and turned. I had to explain to him gemming for 10 minutes and then googled a picture on my phone and show it to him for him to say something like, "yeh, I have seen those, but the factory I know use the all leather ones..."

Interesting. So I guess then Weston could argue that in a sense this factory doesn't do full cut-and-turn GY construction, since it doesn't cut the insole itself. I wonder why they don't cut it themselves. Seems to me a pretty crucial part of making the shoe.
post #1285 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Shouldn't be a problem...that's the beauty of HW--it evolved to be able to be resoled repeatedly, maybe even indefinitely, with minimal fuss or bother. Even by cobblers and repair men that aren't intimately and personally conversant with HW.

Unless they punched so many holes on the welt that it risks being split in half... And how many cobblers diligently sewn outsole to attempt aligning new stitching with existing holes?
post #1286 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Unless they punched so many holes on the welt that it risks being split in half... And how many cobblers diligently sewn outsole to attempt aligning new stitching with existing holes?

More should (it's not that hard) but then they aren't shoemakers so perhaps they don't understand the importance.
post #1287 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcodalondra View Post

I' LL add my two cents. My bespoke shoemaker, makes shoes by hand at home, mostly in his spare time, as he loves make shoes but also like the security of his day job, a very sought after shoe model/pattern maker for a top factory near Naples that makes shoes for Many top brands, including a well known French luxury group.
He has also a vast experience with many other factories around the Campania region, and basically good year machines are not readily available across the factories there; I think one place has one or two machine. I also learned that this place uses pre cut/prepared insoles for Good Year, and not a genmed insole with fabric.

Edit: BTW in Italy to explain handwelting is often described as "Good Year" by hand

GY machinery is expensive. And requires more than just a simple Blake stitcher. When the Italians outsource shoemaking to Asia it's all Blake stitched as it only requires one stitching machine and a buffer.

Blake is low capex and small footprint thus popular in non UK/US countries. HW was maintained in some parts of the world because family workshops cannot afford to buy Blake machines...

Yeah Italians call HW as GY by hand. But I guess they, in addition to the Japanese, need a few lectures from our terminology police.
post #1288 of 1515

TA, good questions.  I wish I knew the answers.  I have another question in light of the fact that Marco reminded us of, namely that in Italy handwelted is usually called "Goodyear by hand":

 

How many high-end Italian shoes that say "Goodyear" are actually GY, and how many HW?  I thought they were all GY, but acc. to a long post by Zonkeyboot about hand welting, Kiton, Lattanzi and other Italian makers use handwelting.  You'll find places on the internet saying Ferragamo Tramezzas are GY and others saying they're HW.  I don't know which is true.  It could even be that they were at one time(s) GY and at other time(s) HW.

 

Edit:  A photo or two here on their website look like HW, and this video seems to depict hand welting (min. 2:12 to 2:40 or so).

post #1289 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by emptym View Post

TA, good questions.  I wish I knew the answers.  I have another question in light of the fact that Marco reminded us of, namely that in Italy handwelted is usually called "Goodyear by hand":

How many high-end Italian shoes that say "Goodyear" are actually GY, and how many HW?  I thought they were all GY, but acc. to a long post by Zonkeyboot about hand welting, Kiton, Lattanzi and other Italian makers use handwelting.  You'll find places on the internet saying Ferragamo Tramezzas are GY and others saying they're HW.  I don't know which is true.  It could even be that they were at one time(s) GY and at other time(s) HW.

Thanks for the great article, m. Pardon the pleonasm, but you are a fount of sources! So I was right about outsourcing to Sicily. This Rollig seems to know his stuff about the structure and history of the Italian industry.

I've been wondering about Tramezzas and similar as well. I wouldn't be surprised if they were hand-welted, and then somebody wise to Anglophone terminology and Anglophone consumers' generally poor knowledge of shoemaking said, "They already don't really appreciate that they're hand-welted and what that entails; so why not just make them by machine and call them Goodyear? Perfectly truthful." Interesting that Spaniards (well, Meermin) call hand-welting "Goodyear cosido a mano."
post #1290 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by emptym View Post

TA, good questions.  I wish I knew the answers.  I have another question in light of the fact that Marco reminded us of, namely that in Italy handwelted is usually called "Goodyear by hand":

How many high-end Italian shoes that say "Goodyear" are actually GY, and how many HW?  I thought they were all GY, but acc. to a long post by Zonkeyboot about hand welting, Kiton, Lattanzi and other Italian makers use handwelting.  You'll find places on the internet saying Ferragamo Tramezzas are GY and others saying they're HW.  I don't know which is true.  It could even be that they were at one time(s) GY and at other time(s) HW.

Edit:  A photo or two here on their website look like HW, and this video seems to depict hand welting (min. 2:12 to 2:40 or so).

Yeah, I guess that's hand welting but it is really just the same kind of inseaming as the original GY. There's a strip of canvas added to reinforce an outside and inside channel turned on edge. It shares some of the strengths of HW and some of the weaknesses of GY. With little of the full benefit of either.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 2/9/16 at 6:13pm
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