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shoe construction...behind the veil - Page 81

post #1201 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post


As usual you proved nothing.
Thanks for the pics. To be honest they are pretty ugly looking things. I don't know of anyone that would wear them. But that's cosmetics. So it be, to each their own.
A $1800.00 HW shoe made with quality?
Show us one of your contracts deleting all personal info.
If you can't you are full of shit.


You say this and yet you are "web friends" with Florsheim?  You illustrate your services, which, by the way, I have heard are excellent, with some fairly unattractive footwear.

 

Do you really not know anybody who would wear DW's shoes?  I find that hard to believe.  How about we take a look at all of the footwear you have personally worn in the past three days, so we can see what you think are wearable shoes?

 

If DW is completely honest, we can take his word that he delivers bespoke HW shoes for $1,800.  If he is not completely honest, he could easily fake a contract showing any damn price he would like.  A copy of a contract would prove nothing.  We take him at his word, or we don't.  We aren't sending a forensic accountant to audit his books.

 

DW is clearly not full of shit.  Plenty of well-respected people have personally attested to the quality of the work of his own hands.  Short of his finding somebody else to do the work for him on the sly, which would seem difficult at his prices, I don't see how he can fake his knowledge when the product of it is visible.

post #1202 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petepan View Post


So what??? The plural of anecdote is not data.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petepan View Post

So what??? The plural of anecdote is not data.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0
post #1203 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post


You say this and yet you are "web friends" with Florsheim?  You illustrate your services, which, by the way, I have heard are excellent, with some fairly unattractive footwear.

Do you really not know anybody who would wear DW's shoes?  I find that hard to believe.  How about we take a look at all of the footwear you have personally worn in the past three days, so we can see what you think are wearable shoes?

If DW is completely honest, we can take his word that he delivers bespoke HW shoes for $1,800.  If he is not completely honest, he could easily fake a contract showing any damn price he would like.  A copy of a contract would prove nothing.  We take him at his word, or we don't.  We aren't sending a forensic accountant to audit his books.

DW is clearly not full of shit.  Plenty of well-respected people have personally attested to the quality of the work of his own hands.  Short of his finding somebody else to do the work for him on the sly, which would seem difficult at his prices, I don't see how he can fake his knowledge when the product of it is visible.

Are you ready for second grade?
post #1204 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post

If DW is completely honest, we can take his word that he delivers bespoke HW shoes for $1,800.  If he is not completely honest, he could easily fake a contract showing any damn price he would like.  A copy of a contract would prove nothing.  We take him at his word, or we don't.  We aren't sending a forensic accountant to audit his books.

Is that it, you suppose? He thinks I would put a "standard" price on a contract? I can tell him, you, everyone that I do not. Those lines are left blank intentionally. If for no other reason than that I don't have to print up a new contract every time I change my prices. Which I haven't in over two(?) years.

But it's also just the way I operate...I don't quote price on my web page either. I make people call me so that they can talk to me and I can talk to them. If they won't do that...can't be bothered...I don't want their business.

Almost as galling as being called a liar every time Nick or chogall gets hoisted up by their own petard, is the petulance that compels him to call emptym a liar. MTM told him what my prices were. Yet he's still carping on it. FWIW, MTM signed that same contract (both times).

It's posturing, that's all.

I'm not posting my contract because 1) I don't do what he tells me to do even if he's lying on the floor kicking his heels and pulling his hair. If nothing else I enjoy his antics---it's the only time he's coherent and real.

And 2) it's nobody's business but my own. (who said that? here in this thread, I mean?)
Quote:
DW is clearly not full of shit.  Plenty of well-respected people have personally attested to the quality of the work of his own hands.

I thank you for that but pay him no mind. He's wrong about that as well as all the other stuff--I'm real regular. lol8[1].gif
post #1205 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post


Are you ready for second grade?


Try to stay on topic...generic insults will only weaken any argument you're trying to make.  You will note my posting was limited to talking about footwear and the photos of footwear people have chosen to share.

post #1206 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post


Try to stay on topic...generic insults will only weaken any argument you're trying to make.  You will note my posting was limited to talking about footwear and the photos of footwear people have chosen to share.
[/quot

Agreed......
A contract would prove everything.
None the less? BS Time to move on.
post #1207 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post


You say this and yet you are "web friends" with Florsheim?  You illustrate your services, which, by the way, I have heard are excellent, with some fairly unattractive footwear.

Do you really not know anybody who would wear DW's shoes?  I find that hard to believe.  How about we take a look at all of the footwear you have personally worn in the past three days, so we can see what you think are wearable shoes?

If DW is completely honest, we can take his word that he delivers bespoke HW shoes for $1,800.  If he is not completely honest, he could easily fake a contract showing any damn price he would like.  A copy of a contract would prove nothing.  We take him at his word, or we don't.  We aren't sending a forensic accountant to audit his books.

DW is clearly not full of shit.  Plenty of well-respected people have personally attested to the quality of the work of his own hands.  Short of his finding somebody else to do the work for him on the sly, which would seem difficult at his prices, I don't see how he can fake his knowledge when the product of it is visible.

His ability to make shoes has nothing to do with his personality.
post #1208 of 1515
DW totality lied about me. As he has in the past. To me that's a disgrace.
A contract would prove everything. It' simple......
post #1209 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Is that it, you suppose? He thinks I would put a "standard" price on a contract? I can tell him, you, everyone that I do not. Those lines are left blank intentionally. If for no other reason than that I don't have to print up a new contract every time I change my prices. Which I haven't in over two(?) years.

But it's also just the way I operate...I don't quote price on my web page either. I make people call me so that they can talk to me and I can talk to them. If they won't do that...can't be bothered...I don't want their business.

Almost as galling as being called a liar every time Nick or chogall gets hoisted up by their own petard, is the petulance that compels him to call emptym a liar. MTM told him what my prices were. Yet he's still carping on it. FWIW, MTM signed that same contract (both times).

It's posturing, that's all.

I'm not posting my contract because 1) I don't do what he tells me to do even if he's lying on the floor kicking his heels and pulling his hair. If nothing else I enjoy his antics---it's the only time he's coherent and real.

And 2) it's nobody's business but my own. (who said that? here in this thread, I mean?)
I thank you for that but pay him no mind. He's wrong about that as well as all the other stuff--I'm real regular. lol8[1].gif

I am not calling M a liar. So don't put words in my mouth.

I am merely stating the fact that some of those upstart US 'bespoke' makers don't have the skill, training, or experiences compare to the EU/UK/JP or even Southeast Asia counterparts.
post #1210 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Not true.

Fact is, you disrespect my personal experience because I am not a shoemaker. You disrespect NickV's professional experience because his not a shoemaker.

But now you are saying DWW knows something about shoemaking disregarding the fact that his not a shoemaker.

Your stance changed because of a PR blog post.
post #1211 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


His ability to make shoes has nothing to do with his personality.

 

 

Although I understand the point you are making.  I actually believe a man needs a certain kind of personality to reach the highest levels of his craft.  If DW were the kind of man to cut corners, lie to others, and lie to himself, I just don't think he could make the footwear he makes.  When I made things for a living, I was called pig-headed for spending too long on "quality," because there was more money to be made by settling for "good enough."  If I were willing to play fast and loose with the facts, I just wouldn't have been the kind of guy to "waste" his time making things to the very best of my ability.  

 

Is it possible that I'm totally wrong about DW?  I guess so, but I feel I have a sense for these things.  Now, he might write things out of anger here, on occasion, that don't do him as much credit as they could, but we all have our weaknesses.

post #1212 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post

Another post in which I ask questions, having received so many helpful answers previously.

#1

Imagine one is getting some boots made for use in the great outdoors.  Imagine one is going to get them made out of a thick, good-quality, full-grain oil-tanned leather.

Then imagine you get to choose if you want the smooth side out or the rough side out.  

Other than aesthetics, why would one choose one side out versus the other?  Now, I've heard that rough out is better with scratches, but I'm not sure if that is just about looks or what?  Would  smooth-out be better for wet conditions, because the smooth side will deflect water a little better?  Does rough out somehow prevent leather from drying out as quickly in very hot and dry situations?  (Of course, I am assuming one would oil/condition the boots appropriately, either way.)  Would there be a difference in breathability?  Would the presence of a lining change one's decision?

Are there greater or lesser challenges depending on which side out one turns the leather when making a rugged boot?

#2

Multiple bookmakers in the Pacific Northwest talk about hand welting their boots.  Is this hand welting done in the same way as one might see in a HW shoe by one of the few high-end RTW makers in Europe that use HW?

#3

How much will a leather-soled shoe or boot shrink length-wise with wear?  Am I right that a boot that has a heavy rubber outsole beneath the leather sole would probably not shrink length-wise as much?

#4

I brought some Blake-stitched Italian men's blutchers into a local cobbler to be "resoled."  I was told it would cost $85 and was charged upfront.  I got the shoes back with a partial leather sole stitched on top of the old sole, but no reaching all the way back to the sole, definitely thickening the look and feel of the sole.  New top lifts, if I am right about the terminology, were also put on.  The shoes are functional and the fit hasn't changed, but they don't look the same, and I don't feel that is what one would call a "resole."  Am I right that this is not what one would expect when getting shoes "resoled" by a cobbler, but that it is a lesser service, which should be described as such?

1. Rough side out.
2. Yes.
3. My leather shoes never shrank length wise. But leather sole for outdoors is an extremely bad choice; it doesn't keep your shoes dry. Hand welted (or gyw) construction is really bad in keeping feet dry as well. But if you are silly enough to believe in them, beware of trench foot.

4. did you ask for half or full sole?
post #1213 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbhan12 View Post
 

 

As someone who has formal training and is extremely well versed in material science, you sound incredibly ignorant when you say this. Sure, leather is better than what the cheaper manufacturers use; cheap materials.

 

There's a fundamental difference. Company A (let's say you) sticks to tradition, works with "the best" materials available which happen to be leather, primary concern is to make a textbook shoe. Company B cares about profit and wants to make shoes for the masses. Thus, they use cheap materials. 

 

If you think material scientists can't make something better than leather you're dead wrong. I'm sure you'll say "you have yet to be presented with a material superior to leather," but who are we kidding, the second someone tells you it's manmade you'll shun it and never use it. 

 

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've never been to Budapest, but I'm sure it's a real city. 


Certainly, material science has produced some incredible results.  That said, it has, to date, not surpassed all natural materials.  Otherwise, why do we see so much wood in the best furniture?  Why do we see so much wool in the best suits?  And, for those money-no-object bespoke footwear that comes out of Paris, London, or Tokyo for over $10,000 per pair, why are so many of them made out of leather?

post #1214 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post


Although I understand the point you are making.  I actually believe a man needs a certain kind of personality to reach the highest levels of his craft.  If DW were the kind of man to cut corners, lie to others, and lie to himself, I just don't think he could make the footwear he makes.  When I made things for a living, I was called pig-headed for spending too long on "quality," because there was more money to be made by settling for "good enough."  If I were willing to play fast and loose with the facts, I just wouldn't have been the kind of guy to "waste" his time making things to the very best of my ability.  

Is it possible that I'm totally wrong about DW?  I guess so, but I feel I have a sense for these things.  Now, he might write things out of anger here, on occasion, that don't do him as much credit as they could, but we all have our weaknesses.

Nope. Being able to reach the pinnacle of any trade has nothing to do with personality.

You are born with it. 10000 hours rule or tons of practice and experience is only a prerequisite of being good in something. But they won't turn average joe Michael Jordan, Einstein, or Picasso.
post #1215 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post


Although I understand the point you are making.  I actually believe a man needs a certain kind of personality to reach the highest levels of his craft.  If DW were the kind of man to cut corners, lie to others, and lie to himself, I just don't think he could make the footwear he makes.  When I made things for a living, I was called pig-headed for spending too long on "quality," because there was more money to be made by settling for "good enough."  If I were willing to play fast and loose with the facts, I just wouldn't have been the kind of guy to "waste" his time making things to the very best of my ability.  

Is it possible that I'm totally wrong about DW?  I guess so, but I feel I have a sense for these things.  Now, he might write things out of anger here, on occasion, that don't do him as much credit as they could, but we all have our weaknesses.

I appreciate your thought's. Thank you.
However.......A custom made bespoke HWed here in northern u.s.?
I don't care how much you jump up and down.
Won't happen......
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