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shoe construction...behind the veil - Page 79

post #1171 of 1519
How to be a shoemaker in the US:
take "intensive shoemaking courses" at Mrsan or CarreDuckers shop. Make a few shoes. Make a website. Claim to be aspiring to become John Lobb of USA. Profit.

Some of them charges reasonable fees aligned with their experiences while others charges as if they are John Lobb.

Downside is, unlike makers whom worked/apprenticed within an actual workshop or did our working, these shoemaking school educated makers had little supervision as they build up their subsidized experiences and don't have exposure to best practices used in institutionalized bespoke shoemaking workshops.
post #1172 of 1519
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

I said in the U.S.
I'm starting to think that leading people to believe that you can have a bespoke HW shoe made here in the U.S. (let alone) N.Y.C. for $1800.00 is no different than saying you can buy a RTW shoe for $50.00. If that's the case what happened to the quality to $ ratio that fueled this discussion?

You misunderstood...it's a common but wrong headed perception for all of that.

There is no absolute relationship between price and quality.

(And that's not where this discussion started --the "fuel" was just the dry tinder of controversy and troublemaking)
post #1173 of 1519
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Well if you've been "listening" / learning, the answer should be obvious. If I were a younger man and had the skill / knowledge / training as well as the tools, I'd prefer to carve lasts from blocks or rough turns.

At least some of the time.

And the reason is obvious and recently articulated:

"It's what draws us to shoemaking--the prospect of learning and continuing to learn. Maybe it's what differentiates us from people who are not shoemakers or craftsmen...we relish the opportunities to learn."

If I could, I learn to make pitch. I'd learn blacksmithing, so I could make my own tools. I did learn to turn wood so I could make handles for my tools out of exotic hardwoods.

It's a journey into knowledge. One, that despite popular opinion and druthers--wishful or magical thinking, IOW--can't be started in the middle.

Don't need to dance around the question.

Which do you think is the best practice of making lasts? Creating from blanks? Or modifying existing genetic factory made lasts?
post #1174 of 1519
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Don't need to dance around the question.

Which do you think is the best practice of making lasts? Creating from blanks? Or modifying existing genetic factory made lasts?

The only one dancing is you but it is clear you weren't trained--you don't seem to be able to follow the music. You're dancing a jitterbug to 3/4 time.

Is the glass half empty or half-full? They are different means to reach the same end, that's all. For some...maybe for most...modifying a generic (not genetic) last is the better approach.
post #1175 of 1519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

Thanks, emptym. I forgot to mention Nasser Vies in Toronto, who I posted about here. I'm pretty sure he's under Nick V's mark. There's also a small shop offering hand-welted bespoke in Leon, Guanajuato, Mexico (the capital of Mexican tanning and shoemaking). The owner speaks and writes good English.

The former teaches shoemaking for a living. The latter is pure meh.

What's next? Indonesian, Laotian, or Nigerian bespoke shoemakers?

The Japanese shoemakers usually spent 5-10 years working for workshops before they start their own shop. Not the case for the newer US guys.
post #1176 of 1519
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

The only one dancing is you but it is clear you weren't trained--you don't seem to be able to follow the music. You're dancing a jitterbug to 3/4 time.

Is the glass half empty or half-full? They are different means to reach the same end, that's all. For some...maybe for most...modifying a generic (not genetic) last is the better approach.

Thanks for catching autocorrect typo.

I respect your opinion but I believe it's the opposite. No I don't make shoes, I buy them.

From suiting perspective, adjusting block patten is MTO not bespoke. So I would think adjusting an existing generic last would be MTO not bespoke.

From a customers perspective, be it a kabuki show or not, using a last making bench/knife is quite an impressive sight. Second only to cutting fitting shoes open.
post #1177 of 1519
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

How to be a shoemaker in the US:
take "intensive shoemaking courses" at Mrsan or CarreDuckers shop. Make a few shoes. Make a website. Claim to be aspiring to become John Lobb of USA. Profit.

Some of them charges reasonable fees aligned with their experiences while others charges as if they are John Lobb.

Downside is, unlike makers whom worked/apprenticed within an actual workshop or did our working, these shoemaking school educated makers had little supervision as they build up their subsidized experiences and don't have exposure to best practices used in institutionalized bespoke shoemaking workshops.


How to be a troll in the US:

Disparage people trying to learn and do things that you yourself don't have the wherewithal to learn or do. And by implication disparage those who are teaching them.

Go on the Internet, read posts from people who are knowledgeable...but filter out all the stuff you don't agree with.

Visit shoe factories and trunk show for some superficial "cred".

Start posting on a forum about shoemaking and pretend to know what you're talking about.
post #1178 of 1519
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdavro23 View Post

As I am on the waiting list for DW, I will gladly take you up on your kind subsidy offer. Thank you, and I will think fondly of you each time I wear them smile.gif

You're on gladly.I only ask that you provide the forum with as much detail as you can. I'll leave that to you. I'm interested if you can provide some pictures as the process evolves. I would also ask a reasonable question. Would you be willing to send me the shoes so I can take a look at them after you are satisfied with the look and fit? I'll gladly pay the shipping both ways assuming they are being shipped State-side. And, to be totally fair and transparent....I think I read that DW has a contract drawn up for each customer....Just to shut me up and to see if anybody is BSing, is it to much to ask that you C&P that contract here in this thread? As I understand this contract is signed at the time of order and will show the date of the order. Of course if you delete your name and address that would be acceptable to me.

Sound reasonable?........
post #1179 of 1519
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

How to be a troll in the US:

Disparage people trying to learn and do things that you yourself don't have the wherewithal to learn or do. And by implication disparage those who are teaching them.

Go on the Internet, read posts from people who are knowledgeable...but filter out all the stuff you don't agree with.

Visit shoe factories and trunk show for some superficial "cred".

Start posting on a forum about shoemaking and pretend to know what you're talking about.

This troll is alerting people from marketing hyped and point out the deficiencies in some makers shoes or exaggerated experiences.

Coincidentally you have been very diplomatically avoiding commenting on other shoemakers faults. Almost to a degree of paid PR/review. even though you are not.
post #1180 of 1519
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Thanks for catching autocorrect typo.

I respect your opinion but I believe it's the opposite. No I don't make shoes, I buy them.

From suiting perspective, adjusting block patten is MTO not bespoke. So I would think adjusting an existing generic last would be MTO not bespoke.

From a customers perspective, be it a kabuki show or not, using a last making bench/knife is quite an impressive sight. Second only to cutting fitting shoes open.

I am just as impressed by the "benchknife." Whether it is kabuki or real skill is for others to decide, but most people who don't do this work are easily impressed. Too easily--it's what leads to mistaken notions about "knowing", if nothing else.

I suspect that most shoemakers in the world...even those hand carving lasts...don't have any idea of how to bring the long heel and the instep measurements into relationship much less be the same on both the left and right.

I suspect that because most shoemakers don't use or respect the long heel measurement...even though it is, IMO, very similar in effect and importance as the heel to ball measure.

For one example.

I don't take anything away from those who do it that way. But there are, as in any aspect of this, those who are good at it--who have refined their eye and work to a precision that most people cannot comprehend...much less desire to put themselves out to achieve...and those whose approach is more indifferent and incurious. Good and bad practitioners, IOW.

Best practices is about results.

--
post #1181 of 1519
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

You're on gladly.I only ask that you provide the forum with as much detail as you can. I'll leave that to you. I'm interested if you can provide some pictures as the process evolves. I would also ask a reasonable question. Would you be willing to send me the shoes so I can take a look at them after you are satisfied with the look and fit? I'll gladly pay the shipping both ways assuming they are being shipped State-side. And, to be totally fair and transparent....I think I read that DW has a contract drawn up for each customer....Just to shut me up and to see if anybody is BSing, is it to much to ask that you C&P that contract here in this thread? As I understand this contract is signed at the time of order and will show the date of the order. Of course if you delete your name and address that would be acceptable to me.

Sound reasonable?........

You're posturing.

Why don't you read?! It would solve a lot of problems and lessen the dissension here.

Didn't a well respected forum member just (10 hours ago-here) tell you he had shoe made by me? Perhaps he could fill in some of these absolutely niggling and snide questions you're raising.
post #1182 of 1519
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

You don't read or comprehend very well...which I attribute to not wanting to expend the effort to think and not wanting to give others the respect you demand for yourself.

I did not "print" anything of the sort. I said...
That's it. I didn't even say "firms."

Beyond that I told you why I didn't want to list them. I took the time and effort to explain to you. That's respect--a portion of my life and life's energy offered up (at your behest but my choice) for your edification and understanding.

You couldn't even make a corresponding effort to understand.

I understood every bit of it. Delete the word firm and replace it what ever you want. And don't bs (at least me) that you are not permitted.That excuse insults my intelligence.
Funny....You accuse me of believing everything I hear from top executives in the shoe biz. Then you boast that you are so dignified because you challenge things to a point where you draw you're own conclusions. It all sounds good and reads well.

Why is it that when I challenge what you write that I am "una persona non era buona"?

Contraction in it's highest violation form to me....
post #1183 of 1519
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

Why is it that when I challenge what you write that I am "una persona non era buona"?

I don't know what that means but the fact is that "challenge" is what you do here. All of what you do.

You don't add anything of substance. When people in the midst of all of this ask questions about technique, I make it a point...as I always have...to answer them in detail, to the best of my personal hands-on experience and knowledge, and not just in generalities and vague assurances of "my experiences".

To "challenge" appears to be the real reason you 're here.
Quote:
Contraction in it's highest violation form to me....

I don't know what that means either--it's incomprehensible and incoherent.
post #1184 of 1519
Thread Starter 
FWIW...and addressing some unfinished business that Nick reminded me of...

I do have a contract. Traditionalist that I am, it is designed and structured almost entirely after a 19th century contract.

The same can be said about my pricing structure. 19th century in origin. It is standard practice and has been for centuries...to give the customer options. And to price accordingly.

All that is also "my business" (meaning my affairs) and in the stricter sense of the word "business" I have no intention of sharing any more than I have to on a Forum where I am not a sponsoring entity. And maybe tolerated only for my keen wit, cutting insights and sense of humour.

It's worth remembering that, like this forum and the opinions offered by people like me, everything is voluntary. No one is forced to pay for a pair of shoes in the first place, much less the addition of a surcharge ...such as I learned / picked up from Janne Melkersohn...for outseaming by hand.

Full disclosure...kind of.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 2/6/16 at 1:31pm
post #1185 of 1519
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

You misunderstood...it's a common but wrong headed perception for all of that.

There is no absolute relationship between price and quality.

(And that's not where this discussion started --the "fuel" was just the dry tinder of controversy and troublemaking)

For the life of me I can't understand why you consider me a troublemaker when I am only questioning some of the things you write. Usually when I stick to my guns and don't distracted (rather bored) when you change the subject you can't prove me wrong. For the most part when we disagree you can't prove your point with real life circumstances as I have.

If I remember correctly there was a part of this discussion that related the price of a RTW high-grade VS a HW bespoke. How much the difference in cost was not that significant. What I was trying to contend was that if you factored in the quality aspect the $1800.00 HW VS an $1800.00 RTW the RTW is a better deal.
Certainly the route I would choose.
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