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shoe construction...behind the veil - Page 77

post #1141 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


I am old fashioned in lots of ways. I, personally, don't think that sole guards make much sense. But my wife likes them. And sometimes she convinces female customers that they will like them too. I think that if you want rubber outsoles, go for rubber outsoles.

I wear leather in all kinds of weather.

With regard to heels...on boots, I mount a full rubber toplift, unless otherwise requested. On shoes, I generally make, from scratch, a combination toplift--1/4 rubber, 3/4 leather...or whatever ratio looks good to me that day.

Everybody has an opinion on this. Here's mine:

Functionally, rubber probably has the advantage over leather esp. in wet conditions although even the newest, most advanced rubber compounds can slip on polished or slick surfaces...as badly or even worse than leather. IMO.

Aesthetically, rubber outsoles bring the whole shoe down several notches--an $1800.00 shoe suddenly looks like a $500 dollar shoe. And no one looks twice. IMO.

Ethically, rubber is petrochemical and has done more damage to the environment since the 1940's than veg tanned leather has in its entire history--roughly 10,000 years. IMO.

That's my opinion...no charge. smile.gif

 

Again, I find this all very helpful.  I probably need to trust my leather-soled shoes more.  Soon, I'll be wearing them in brine slush after snow storms. :-)

 

One quibble on the rubber: there is natural latex rubber, which I don't believe involves any petrochemicals, but I am frequently wrong...

post #1142 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

I would define it as achieving the best fit possible by whatever means make the most sense. In other words, not sacrificing quality for expediency. I may be mistaken, as DW said, and it may be possible to achieve the same fit using Goodyear-welting, but it doesn't seem likely or people would be doing it.

Okay, but "the best fit possible" just kicks the can down the road, doesn't it? The best fit possible under what constraints? If you say the only acceptable constraint is what's been achieved, then you'd have to use the world's best measurer, last-maker, clicker, laster, welter, etc. for it to be bespoke. That's clearly too demanding. If you say it's whatever constraint is reasonable, then the Northampton ready-made folks will say they provide their customers with the best fit possible, under reasonable constraints of price and organizational capacity. Clearly, we need a constraint that falls somewhere in between those extremes. I think it's that the item has to be made for you and your needs, and only you and your needs. And it has to be made from a model or pattern itself made from scratch, one also made only for you and your needs.
post #1143 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

No, but you didn't ask for hand-welted. You asked for bespoke. As I've said, bespoke needn't be hand-welted.

Here's your question:
"Does anybody know a firm here in the U.S. that would make a bespoke shoe for $1800.00? Lasts?
I don't.....and if you know of one (please let us know)"

Vogel satisfies all that. TimelessRider's review of 2004.

So, are you saying that you would be willing to pay $1600.00 (I doubt that you would get that price, all-in) for a bespoke shoe that's not hand welted to the insole?
And, based on the discussion here, if the welt is not hand stitched to the insole why would you? Hand stitched welting to the insole seems to be the main issue of most of this thread.
post #1144 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post


Nice try.
Permission? What permission do you need?
You won't answer the question because you can't.
Maybe you will do it. Who else will?
Now we have the forum (who ever is interested in this thread) thinking you can get a bespoke made shoe of their liking last, quality and all for what? $1800.00? Show me...

I know you like your fly fishing. I never had the time to learn it but would like to some day. Did very well this past season w/the brookies and rainbows. Just floated some eggs, worms and used some spinners.

High hook to ya.


I was quoted $5,000 by a well-respected cordwainer in the greater Philadelphia area, but he outsources the basic last-making to the UK.  He also does repair work on footwear, both his own products and other people's.  He apparently doesn't have much of a wait list, either.

 

I happen to be one of the guys who wastes too much money on RTW footwear, but can't justify $5,000 on a single pair.  I could justify $1,800...well, some days, I could, some days, no.

 

Further, DW has made me feel that I shouldn't plunk for bespoke unless the same person does everything from soup to nuts.

 

Sometimes, I even consider whether I should devote 1,000 hours a year to learning cordwaining for the next ten-to-fourteen years, then make all the shoes I wanted for my friends, family, and myself... I would have to keep my day job throughout this...

post #1145 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post

One quibble on the rubber: there is natural latex rubber, which I don't believe involves any petrochemicals, but I am frequently wrong...

Once upon a time there was...it was called Plantation Crepe. And probably there's still some around but I am under the impression that the most of it is synthetic now...even though it kind of looks the same. I haven't had anyone ask me for it in over 30 years.

Having said that, it's not an especially long wearing material.

I use it to clean sandpaper and to remove excess cement...sometimes it works, sometimes not so well.
post #1146 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

So, are you saying that you would be willing to pay $1600.00 (I doubt that you would get that price, all-in) for a bespoke shoe that's not hand welted to the insole?
And, based on the discussion here, if the welt is not hand stitched to the insole why would you? Hand stitched welting to the insole seems to be the main issue of most of this thread.

Why not? Many on this Forum buy Gaziano & Girling MTOs, which are pretty much exactly that price, are Goodyear-welted, and most definitely do NOT include measuring your feet and making a last for you based on those measurements. Vogel do measure your feet and do make a last for you. Are G&G's prettier? Sure. Are they bespoke or hand-welted? No. So I don't see why Vogel is any worse than G&G MTOs, a lot of which have been bought by SFers.
post #1147 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

Nice try.
Permission? What permission do you need?
You won't answer the question because you can't.

Again...you tacitly and snidely question my integrity and honesty.

I respect people by default and only change my behaviour when people don't respect me.

I can but I won't. There's a big difference. I respect people enough that I don't give out information about them when they could very well do it themselves. The fact that they don't, tells me all I need to know--it's not my place, pure and simple.

Period.

Not open for debate.

Unlike others here, I do not pretend. You have been shown many times...unless you were equally so dismissive that you couldn't bring yourself to look. Photos of my work are on this forum in abundance. And there's at least one thread devoted to a reasonably happy customer...and the work I did for him...which was started by that customer, not me.

And finally...check out my avatar. There's a reason for it.

--
Edited by DWFII - 2/5/16 at 8:41pm
post #1148 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post


I was quoted $5,000 by a well-respected cordwainer in the greater Philadelphia area, but he outsources the basic last-making to the UK.  He also does repair work on footwear, both his own products and other people's.  He apparently doesn't have much of a wait list, either.

I happen to be one of the guys who wastes too much money on RTW footwear, but can't justify $5,000 on a single pair.  I could justify $1,800...well, some days, I could, some days, no.

Further, DW has made me feel that I shouldn't plunk for bespoke unless the same person does everything from soup to nuts.

Sometimes, I even consider whether I should devote 1,000 hours a year to learning cordwaining for the next ten-to-fourteen years, then make all the shoes I wanted for my friends, family, and myself... I would have to keep my day job throughout this...

Apparently DW will make you a pair for your very own for about $1800.00 (my sense tells me the price is negotiable). But from what I understand you will get the best materials, workmanship and, within reason the style you want. Plus, You will have your very own last. I'm even willing to contribute 10% of that $1800.00 order (upon delivery and your satisfaction of final fit and look). To be fair though be willing to wait, the Man is semi-retied. And, I respect that.
post #1149 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post


I was quoted $5,000 by a well-respected cordwainer in the greater Philadelphia area, but he outsources the basic last-making to the UK.  He also does repair work on footwear, both his own products and other people's.  He apparently doesn't have much of a wait list, either.

I happen to be one of the guys who wastes too much money on RTW footwear, but can't justify $5,000 on a single pair.  I could justify $1,800...well, some days, I could, some days, no.

Further, DW has made me feel that I shouldn't plunk for bespoke unless the same person does everything from soup to nuts.

Sometimes, I even consider whether I should devote 1,000 hours a year to learning cordwaining for the next ten-to-fourteen years, then make all the shoes I wanted for my friends, family, and myself... I would have to keep my day job throughout this...

Don't give up hope. There are many good makers in the US who charge way less than Ercolino. Besides DWF himself, there's Craig Corvin in Seattle, Rick Roman in Eugene, and others mentioned in this post. You just have to do some digging.
post #1150 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Again...you tacitly and snidely question my integrity and honesty.

I respect people by default and only change my behaviour when people don't respect me.

I can but I won't. There's a big difference. I respect people enough that I don't give out information about them when they could very well do it themselves. The fact that they don't, tells me all I need to know--it's not my place, pure and simple.

Period.

Not open for debate.

Unlike others here, I do not pretend. You have been shown many times...unless you were equally so dismissive that you couldn't bring yourself to look. Photos of my work are on this forum in abundance. And there's at least one thread devoted to a reasonably happy customer...and the work I did for him...which was started by that customer, not me.

And finally...check out my avatar. There's a reason for it.

--

Oh stop it...Just an excuse.
FTW I think your work is beautiful. Full of detail. I admire your passion and, I can't hold a candle to what it takes to make a shoe. Let alone I never repaired a pair of shoes in my life. But, be that as it may, I am behind the counter and in the shop every day for over 40 years.

With that, My experiences differ from yours. So be it....

As you printed you can easily provide us with the name of firms that will do a bespoke hand welted shoe to the insole for $1800.00 here in the U.S.
If, for some weird reason (for the life of I don't understand why) you don't have permission, PM me, I'll release them. It's only potential business to them. Why would they object?
post #1151 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

Again....do you really think that they will make you a bespoke pair of shoes, custom lasts, hand welted, and so on for a few 100 bucks
Dream on............

"Custom" lasts. What custom lasts?

Pre-made lasts with adjusted fitting pieces that some makers used as "bespoke"?

Or actual lasts made from rough turns?

Or lasts made from logs?

All custom. Not all bespoke.
post #1152 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

Oh stop it...Just an excuse.
FTW I think your work is beautiful. Full of detail. I admire your passion and, I can't hold a candle to what it takes to make a shoe. Let alone I never repaired a pair of shoes in my life. But, be that as it may, I am behind the counter and in the shop every day for over 40 years.

With that, My experiences differ from yours. So be it....

As you printed you can easily provide us with the name of firms that will do a bespoke hand welted shoe to the insole for $1800.00 here in the U.S.
If, for some weird reason (for the life of I don't understand why) you don't have permission, PM me, I'll release them. It's only potential business to them. Why would they object?

There are a few I think, but you will be subsidizing hobbists. Not that they dont make great shoes, but they are ages away from the top French and Japanese guys.

DWFII knows them better I guess. I'm just a pedestrian shopping for makers.
post #1153 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

...
Maybe you will do it. Who else will?
Now we have the forum (who ever is interested in this thread) thinking you can get a bespoke made shoe of their liking last, quality and all for what? $1800.00? Show me...
...

He's telling the truth.  I have two pairs to prove it.

 

In addition to the ones Testudo_Aubreli posted directly above and the ones in the old post by DW that he linked to, there's a couple places in LA and one in San Jose (the latter of which posts on SF), as well as few featured in this old magazine spread.  There was a very talented student of MarcelHun and Ercolino who was charging under $1000 in San Francisco, but sadly she sustained a shoulder injury that cut short her career.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post


Don't give up hope. There are many good makers in the US who charge way less than Ercolino. Besides DWF himself, there's Craig Corvin in Seattle, Rick Roman in Eugene, and others mentioned in this post. You just have to do some digging.
post #1154 of 1515
Subsidizing their learning experiences.
post #1155 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by emptym View Post

He's telling the truth.  I have two pairs to prove it.

In addition to the ones Testudo_Aubreli posted directly above and the ones in the old post by DW that he linked to, there's a couple places in LA and one in San Jose (the latter of which posts on SF), as well as few featured in this old magazine spread.  There was a very talented student of MarcelHun and Ercolino who was charging under $1000 in San Francisco, but sadly she sustained a shoulder injury that cut short her career.

That being the case, I'll order a pair from him. Willing to wait. At his price. I'll post as we go along. Hopefully we can fish together.
$1800.00 for a bespoke pair that fits me. Do I keep the last? Airfare and hotel are expenses that I won't pay. If Sf is willing to absorb those charges please bring a witness.
All the rest is bullshit.
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