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shoe construction...behind the veil - Page 76

post #1126 of 1522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

So for you, a shoe can't be truly bespoke unless it uses the construction method that provides a better fit than all other construction methods? That seems a weird definition of "true bespoke" to me. Lots of Savile Row bespoke tailors use machine sewing and machine padding to make a coat, and they know that the coat would fit a bit better if all that were done by hand. But no one accuses them of not being bespoke because they use the machines in making up. So what does "true" bespoke mean here?

Thanks for chiming in on G&G bespoke. Amazing that it takes north of 5000 USD to get G&G to make a hand-welted shoe in England, while Enzo Bonafe will retail one made in Bologna Italy for 500 USD.

I would define it as achieving the best fit possible by whatever means make the most sense. In other words, not sacrificing quality for expediency. I may be mistaken, as DW said, and it may be possible to achieve the same fit using Goodyear-welting, but it doesn't seem likely or people would be doing it.
post #1127 of 1522
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Oh I don't know...you may doubt that they would make the style but I doubt any maker, short of those you endorse and or market, would meet your criteria.

There are several US shoemakers on this forum and in this thread that start at $1800.00 or less. Pretty good shoemakers too...by my lights.

"By my lights" --probably queers the deal for you right there, eh?

Can you share them with us?
post #1128 of 1522
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

Can you share them with us?

I only have permission to share one...and he's none too keen about promoting his business or making an unseemly fuss about it. He's semi-retired, you see and likes to fish. But since you've all but called me a liar on several occasions for not answering you the way you expected or wanted (among other reasons), I'll make an exception, just this once--it's that guy out in Oregon.
post #1129 of 1522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

Can you share them with us?

Well, E. Vogel in Brooklyn will do a custom shoe with last for $1600. Once the last is settled, they charge $1050 for another pair on that last.
post #1130 of 1522
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

I would define it as achieving the best fit possible by whatever means make the most sense. In other words, not sacrificing quality for expediency. I may be mistaken, as DW said, and it may be possible to achieve the same fit using Goodyear-welting, but it doesn't seem likely or people would be doing it.

Let me clarify a bit--I don't see a physical impediment. But again, I don't do GY.

Beyond that, I vaguely recall, when I first joined this forum, being gobsmacked that someone was claiming that a major cachet brand shoe manufacturer was making Goodyear bespoke...and being chastised (maybe rightfully so) for suggesting it couldn't / shouldn't be done.

Even to this day, being thousands of mile and an ocean away, I don't have the knowledge--the close detailed knowledge--of Northampton practices that those who live near by do.

So take what I say in that regard with a grain of salt.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 2/5/16 at 5:52pm
post #1131 of 1522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

Well, E. Vogel in Brooklyn will do a custom shoe with last for $1600..

Well, those 'custom shoes' seem to have a strange construction (cemented?). If you want 'welts', you pay another $ 225 on top of it. It doesn't say 'hand-welted', I even doubt it's GYW, or even 'welted' as we know it. It might be just a decorative bon-welt glued into place. 'Hand-stitching on the upper costs another $ 225. If that is for a beautiful apron seam, then it is a very reasonable price. If it's just for three stay-stitches on the bottom of the quarters, then it's outrageous.

Anyone who has ever bought glasses will know the concept of 'up-selling'. You get the punters with an artificially low starting price into the shop, then you try to sell all kinds of add-ons (at inflated prices) to make a profit.

Some shoemakers work the same principle. The starting price is extremely low, the extras are extremely overpriced. So to get a shoe constructed to a reasonable standard and designed to a reasonable aesthetic (extra for a toe cap, extra for a row of perforation etc), you can pay easily double or more than the starting price.

Caveat emptor!
post #1132 of 1522
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


I have always loved John Lobb's (Sr? Jr? II? III?) assertion that Lobbs St James have "turned their backs on the machine," or some such. It's a beautiful sentiment but of course they haven't completely--they still use sewing machines.

The issue comes down to the definition of "best." I have a pair of shoes I am just finishing that I partially hand stitched on the upper at 12spi. Next time...and there will be a next time...it will be 14spi. And ultimately I hope to achieve 22spi simply because that's a Traditional standard for master(?) level work in the US. But at a certain point it's self defeating. And becomes only good for show.

I guess it's one of those contradictory conundrums--we pay lip service to Tradition and best practices but we've all long since embraced the sewing machine. Simply because when you sweep up the scraps there is no significant aesthetic, or more importantly, functional difference or disadvantage to using it.

And just for a bit of insight (where applicable) the same can be said about a skiving machine. I know how to hand skive.Cut my teeth on it. I teach it. But I have a Fortuna and without doubt, when properly adjusted...and "after you have swept up the scraps"...there is no difference functionally or aesthetically between machine skived and hand skived.

PS...thinking about it, "best practices" really isn't about the history or purity of the technique, it isn't really even about the technique itself so much as the results. For instance, "best practices" Traditionally demands that the bristles and taws not be dropped dropped during inseaming. Many newbies are confounded by such seemingly niggling details. But the truth of the matter is that when you drop your bristles they not only pick up dirt and crap from the floor but the risk of inadvertent knots increases by an order of magnitude. Given good hand wax, that can be a disaster.

--

 

This is the type of information I enjoy learning.  I also appreciate that you aren't into the old ways just because they are old.  You are pragmatic and use machinery where it doesn't compromise the end result with the scraps swept up.  I imagine you also don't kill your own boar with a flint-tipped spear for the bristles.  Though just typing this is making me hungry for ribs...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Point of clarification...strictly speaking, inseaming and handwelting are not synonymous. When handwelting you are indeed inseaming but machine stitching the welt and upper to gemming is also inseaming.

So while handwelting is inseaming, inseaming is not necessarily handwelting.

FWIW, FYI, IOW smile.gif

 

Ah, okay, got it.

 

Though I'm sure it's been addressed by you, what are your feelings about the adding of rubber to an outsole or a heel?  I can't bring myself to wear leather-soled shoes on wet days, but maybe I should...I wore some with those fancy German soles out on wet pavement, not even when it was actually raining, but I feel the soles suffered for it by going soft...or was it something else?

post #1133 of 1522
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

Well, those 'custom shoes' seem to have a strange construction (cemented?). If you want 'welts', you pay another $ 225 on top of it. It doesn't say 'hand-welted', I even doubt it's GYW, or even 'welted' as we know it. It might be just a decorative bon-welt glued into place. 'Hand-stitching on the upper costs another $ 225. If that is for a beautiful apron seam, then it is a very reasonable price. If it's just for three stay-stitches on the bottom of the quarters, then it's outrageous.

Anyone who has ever bought glasses will know the concept of 'up-selling'. You get the punters with an artificially low starting price into the shop, then you try to sell all kinds of add-ons (at inflated prices) to make a profit.

Some shoemakers work the same principle. The starting price is extremely low, the extras are extremely overpriced. So to get a shoe constructed to a reasonable standard and designed to a reasonable aesthetic (extra for a toe cap, extra for a row of perforation etc), you can pay easily double or more than the starting price.

Caveat emptor!

Good points, but the question was who makes bespoke shoes for under $1800 in the US. Vogel do. Bespoke is one thing, hand-welted another. Here's custom maker under 1800 in the US: Kroop Boot in Marlyand. I talked with the owner a couple of years ago: everything is Goodyear Welted. She charges around 500 USD for custom shoes.
post #1134 of 1522
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post

Though I'm sure it's been addressed by you, what are your feelings about the adding of rubber to an outsole or a heel?  I can't bring myself to wear leather-soled shoes on wet days, but maybe I should...I wore some with those fancy German soles out on wet pavement, not even when it was actually raining, but I feel the soles suffered for it by going soft...or was it something else?

I am old fashioned in lots of ways. I, personally, don't think that sole guards make much sense. But my wife likes them. And sometimes she convinces female customers that they will like them too. I think that if you want rubber outsoles, go for rubber outsoles.

I wear leather in all kinds of weather.

With regard to heels...on boots, I mount a full rubber toplift, unless otherwise requested. On shoes, I generally make, from scratch, a combination toplift--1/4 rubber, 3/4 leather...or whatever ratio looks good to me that day.

Everybody has an opinion on this. Here's mine:

Functionally, rubber probably has the advantage over leather esp. in wet conditions although even the newest, most advanced rubber compounds can slip on polished or slick surfaces...as badly or even worse than leather. IMO.

Aesthetically, rubber outsoles bring the whole shoe down several notches--an $1800.00 shoe suddenly looks like a $500 dollar shoe. And no one looks twice. IMO.

Ethically, rubber is petrochemical and has done more damage to the environment since the 1940's than veg tanned leather has in its entire history--roughly 10,000 years. IMO.

That's my opinion...no charge. smile.gif
post #1135 of 1522
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I am old fashioned in lots of ways. I, personally, don't think that sole guards make much sense. But my wife likes them. And sometimes she convinces female customers that they will like them too. I think that if you want rubber outsoles, go for rubber outsoles.

I wear leather in all kinds of weather.

With regard to heels...on boots, I mount a full rubber toplift, unless otherwise requested. On shoes, I generally make, from scratch, a combination toplift--1/4 rubber, 3/4 leather...or whatever ratio looks good to me that day.

Everybody has an opinion on this. Here's mine:

Functionally, rubber probably has the advantage over leather esp. in wet conditions although even the newest, most advanced rubber compounds can slip on polished or slick surfaces...as badly or even worse than leather. IMO.

Aesthetically, rubber outsoles bring the whole shoe down several notches--an $1800.00 shoe suddenly looks like a $500 dollar shoe. And no one looks twice. IMO.

Ethically, rubber is petrochemical and has done more damage to the environment since the 1940's than veg tanned leather has in its entire history--roughly 10,000 years. IMO.

That's my opinion...no charge. smile.gif

Do the same advantages for HW over GYW apply if you are talking about a Dainite or Vibram lug sole and not a leather sole?
post #1136 of 1522
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by makewayhomer View Post

Do the same advantages for HW over GYW apply if you are talking about a Dainite or Vibram lug sole and not a leather sole?

Moreso, IMO.
post #1137 of 1522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

Well, E. Vogel in Brooklyn will do a custom shoe with last for $1600. Once the last is settled, they charge $1050 for another pair on that last.

So....you really think that you are going to get a bespoke shoe from them, on your own last, hand welted for $1600.00?
Only one way to find out. Contact them and ask. Let us know.....
post #1138 of 1522
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I only have permission to share one...and he's none too keen about promoting his business or making an unseemly fuss about it. He's semi-retired, you see and likes to fish. But since you've all but called me a liar on several occasions for not answering you the way you expected or wanted (among other reasons), I'll make an exception, just this once--it's that guy out in Oregon.

Nice try.
Permission? What permission do you need?
You won't answer the question because you can't.
Maybe you will do it. Who else will?
Now we have the forum (who ever is interested in this thread) thinking you can get a bespoke made shoe of their liking last, quality and all for what? $1800.00? Show me...

I know you like your fly fishing. I never had the time to learn it but would like to some day. Did very well this past season w/the brookies and rainbows. Just floated some eggs, worms and used some spinners.

High hook to ya.
post #1139 of 1522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

So....you really think that you are going to get a bespoke shoe from them, on your own last, hand welted for $1600.00?
Only one way to find out. Contact them and ask. Let us know.....

No, but you didn't ask for hand-welted. You asked for bespoke. As I've said, bespoke needn't be hand-welted.

Here's your question:
"Does anybody know a firm here in the U.S. that would make a bespoke shoe for $1800.00? Lasts?
I don't.....and if you know of one (please let us know)"

Vogel satisfies all that. TimelessRider's review of 2004.
post #1140 of 1522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

Good points, but the question was who makes bespoke shoes for under $1800 in the US. Vogel do. Bespoke is one thing, hand-welted another. Here's custom maker under 1800 in the US: Kroop Boot in Marlyand. I talked with the owner a couple of years ago: everything is Goodyear Welted. She charges around 500 USD for custom shoes.

Again....do you really think that they will make you a bespoke pair of shoes, custom lasts, hand welted, and so on for a few 100 bucks
Dream on............
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