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shoe construction...behind the veil - Page 74

post #1096 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

Can't find anything about hand-welting on their website, though. If they offer it, why don't they advertise it?

Here you are:

http://www.trickers.com/bespoke
post #1097 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

That's an ignorant assumption. You are assuming I can't tell the difference or do due diligence about outsole sewing quality, lasting, last making, stitching, pattern making, etc.

You don't have to be a pro basketball player to appreciate and understand how great Jordan or S.Curry as a player. Or no one needs to be a painter to appreciate Van Gough.

Or a more personal and relatable example, DWFII doesn't need to have actual experience in brewing whisky or making oak barrels to appreciate different shades of Islay or understand the difference between Highland and Islay.

That said, I am definitely not like those big timers on this forum buying dozens of $1.5k shoes every year. I research and spend carefully.

You're right and you're wrong...again.

There is a big, big difference between appreciating and knowing. Maybe it's a deficit in understanding English but I can appreciate whisky and not know about how it is made. Even if I have the outline of the process. I have made beer...which is the precursor to whisky. I know what is involved but I don't know...and wouldn't have the gall or hubris to pretend otherwise.

The big difference between my position and yours is that I am not so ignorant that I don't know, and acknowledge, what I don't know. And in knowing what I don't know, I am compelled, even driven to find out for myself. To refine my senses. I don't just up and decide that curiousity is out of place.

Or that I know enough to lecture others about things I don't know.
post #1098 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


That's an ignorant assumption. You are assuming I can't tell the difference or do due diligence about outsole sewing quality, lasting, last making, stitching, pattern making, etc.

You don't have to be a pro basketball player to appreciate and understand how great Jordan or S.Curry as a player. Or no one needs to be a painter to appreciate Van Gough.

Or a more personal and relatable example, DWFII doesn't need to have actual experience in brewing whisky or making oak barrels to appreciate different shades of Islay or understand the difference between Highland and Islay.

That said, I am definitely not like those big timers on this forum buying dozens of $1.5k shoes every year. I research and spend carefully.

Its interesting that you use this as an example as I have some experience in this regard. In what seems like a lifetime ago, I was a collegiate and briefly professional soccer player in England. What it took for me to get to that level given my limited talent and genetics I wont bore you with, but sufficed to say there were sacrifices. When I hear people comment on players or pass judgement on performances, in my mind I want to scream. The general public, however much they appreciate, watch or even participate in the game has no idea what it is actually like to train and compete at the professional level. None. It is an experience that cannot be inferred or observed. What it takes to do the work, for a living and with real consequence to every action, brings pressure that could not be imagined. Yes, you understand that Jordan or Messi or either Ronaldo are great players, but you cant truly understand why because you havent been in their shoes. 

 

I am not saying you know nothing and your experiences count for nought. I actually find you very bright and insightful, and you clearly know a lot about shoes. In fact, as irritating as it is sometimes, I actually find your passion and disagreement on this subject interesting as I invariably learn something. But you havent done the work and you dont have the perspective to understand why things matter or dont. The value of that perspective is priceless and no amount of research will make up for doing the work.

post #1099 of 1515
In my neck of the woods it's very doubtful to have a custom made shoe made for $1800.00. More like $2500.00 and north of.....

IMO there is no right or wrong to this discussion. It comes down to how a customer is willing to spend his money.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned the comparison of Lexus vs. Toyota. Was the Lexus built better? To me it was. Was the difference worth the difference in cost? Not to me. The next Guy is willing to pay. Which is right, which is wrong?

I also mentioned that customers will purchase 6 pair of identical high-grades to have a pair shipped to each of their houses. Of course he can afford as many bespoke as he wanted. He may have several reasons to purchase RTW. Maybe it's not worth the time he has to wait for bespoke. Maybe the cost differential is not justifiable to him. It's nobody's business but his own.

Then you'll get a customer that absolutely must have a pair of bespoke even though he can't afford it. He is willing to sacrifice something else in his life in order to get his dream shoe. Again nobody's business.

Then there are those in between those to ext-reams.

I'll venture to say I think we all agree, nobody wants to be told how to spend their money let along be told what their value system should be.

It's nobody's business but your own....
post #1100 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

Here you are:

http://www.trickers.com/bespoke

Thanks, Bengal. That page came up blank when I checked. Odd that they nowhere say the bespoke shoes are hand-welted: they say "constructed by hand around a personal last" which could just as well mean cemented construction as hand-welting. Then again, they call the shoemakers "cobblers"...
post #1101 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

It's nobody's business but your own....

You're quire right...


But no one that I know of...except those who insist that price trumps quality or is somehow bound up with the concept / definition of quality...has ever judged anyone here with regard to their purchases or priorities.

Nor is anyone being forced to read this thread. And even if they encounter the HW vs GY debate in other threads, unless they are pitifully so dependent on other people's opinions that they cannot form their own, are they being forced to accept or even read those discussions.

It's one of the reasons I don't diss other makers if I can avoid it. I'm talking about incontrovertible, demonstrable facts / aspects of certain techniques.

Again, and always, with an eye to promoting better footwear and more awareness of what goes into (or doesn't) a good and / or expensive pair of shoes.

"We report, you decide."
post #1102 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

Thanks, Bengal. That page came up blank when I checked. Odd that they nowhere say the bespoke shoes are hand-welted: they say "constructed by hand around a personal last" which could just as well mean cemented construction as hand-welting. Then again, they call the shoemakers "cobblers"...

The key there is the photo--clearly hand welted--and the assertion that they even make up their own stitching (inseaming) cords.

"Cobbler" is troubling, AFAIC, and almost inexcusable if you're trying to draw an association with Traditional (200 years worth) workmanship, but probably just a surrender to popular usage / unfamiliarity with the correct and historic terminology.
post #1103 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

Thanks, Bengal. That page came up blank when I checked. Odd that they nowhere say the bespoke shoes are hand-welted: they say "constructed by hand around a personal last" which could just as well mean cemented construction as hand-welting. Then again, they call the shoemakers "cobblers"...

It's hand welted.

It proves that different firms of long history and heritage uses nuances in terminology.

Or someone can pull a blogging shill and unify which term means what across the whole wide world!! Might as well eradicate different branches of English too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

The key there is the photo--clearly hand welted--and the assertion that they even make up their own stitching (inseaming) cords.

"Cobbler" is troubling, AFAIC, and almost inexcusable if you're trying to draw an association with Traditional (200 years worth) workmanship, but probably just a surrender to popular usage / unfamiliarity with the correct and historic terminology.

Trickers was established since 1829, 13 years short of being 200 years old.

It's better to respect their history and choice of terminology. After all they have been making shoes more than a hundred years before you were born.
post #1104 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


It proves that different firms of long history and heritage uses nuances in terminology.

Or someone can pull a blogging shill and unify which term means what across the whole wide world!! Might as well eradicate different branches of English too.
Trickers was established since 1829, 13 years short of being 200 years old.

It's better to respect their history and choice of terminology. After all they have been making shoes more than a hundred years before you were born.

I guess we have to go by the implicit claim of the photo, and ignore the ignorant copy-writing on their page. Okay, I stand corrected: Tricker's now make hand-welted footwear at their Northampton factory. So far as I know, no other Northampton factory offers hand-welted footwear.
post #1105 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

It's better to respect their history and choice of terminology. After all they have been making shoes more than a hundred years before you were born.

Oh I respect their history. I even respect the fact that they still do HW on occasion, for select clients (and probably at commensurate prices), even if it's only a sop to image--because if they are barely making it with RTW, they have to be losing money on HW.

I also respect the Traditions and history of the Trade that comes from people who are the foremost keepers of that knowledge-- June Swann and D.A. Saguto to cite two living examples, as well as Rees, Leno, Bordoli, Plucknett, Swaysland, Golding, Thornton, Salaman. Ever hear of them? Ever read them? No, I didn't think so. You don't respect anything enough or have enough curiosity to have heard of them, you're so wrapped up in your own fantasies.

It's worth repeating...because it's so appropriate. Fits you like a glove...
Quote:
There are only three kinds of people who post to a thread like this--shoemakers/craftsmen/artisans who are necessarily and unapologetically focused on quality and excellence; people who are interested in shoes and what goes into them and, by extension, comparative quality; and those who by their own admission don't give a damn about shoes or quality and have even less curiosity but are here for the sole purpose of creating dissension and basking in the warmth of a flame war.

I suspect it is evident to everyone reading this thread that you don't fit into either of the first two categories.

Ipso facto...

Such people are commonly referred to as "trolls."
post #1106 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

I guess we have to go by the implicit claim of the photo, and ignore the ignorant copy-writing on their page. Okay, I stand corrected: Tricker's now make hand-welted footwear at their Northampton factory. So far as I know, no other Northampton factory offers hand-welted footwear.

Ha. Maybe you should try to order Taco Bell menu items at mexican restaurants. And protest that they didn't follow taco bells convention.

p.s., though not exactly Northampton but I think G&G bespoke workshop is inside its factory.
post #1107 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Ha. Maybe you should try to order Taco Bell menu items at mexican restaurants. And protest that they didn't follow taco bells convention.

p.s., though not exactly Northampton but I think G&G bespoke workshop is inside its factory.

http://www.gazianogirling.com/pages/principles

"VI. Goodyear Welt

Perhaps an obvious point to demanding shoe customers, but all Gaziano & Girling shoes are goodyear-welted"


It's true their bespoke page does claim that everything is done by hand, including the stitching of the sole. But again, a Blake-stitched shoe could be called hand-stitched: you pick up the shoe with your hands and hold it while the machine stitches outsole to insole. Hand-welted is nowhere mentioned on G&G's bespoke page.

On edit: The Skoaktiebolaget guy on the GG appreciation thread claims the bespoke line (and only the bespoke line) is hand-welted: price: 4000 GBP. I guess he would know.
Edited by Testudo_Aubreii - 2/5/16 at 11:48am
post #1108 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

So far as I know, no other Northampton factory offers hand-welted footwear.

Grenson used to offer a bespoke shoe like Trickers (hand-welted and out-sawn by machine), but they stopped the program some 10 or 12 years ago. I believe between the wars, many factories would have offered this type of product. Edward Green tried the first 'drop-drawer' program (early 90s) as hand-welted, but got in such an awful mess with deadlines, they had to abandon the hand-welting.

The times quoted here for hand-welting seem to forget (accidentally on purpose?) that there is more work than stitching on the welt. After all, the insole needs to be prepared: blocking, cutting, holdfast as well as pre-perforation will add another four hours or so.

The whole job of hand-welting takes almost a day (maybe six hours) and will add an additional GBP 180 to the wholesale price, or £450-500 ($ 650-725) to the retail price.
post #1109 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post


The times quoted here for hand-welting seem to forget (accidentally on purpose?) that there is more work than stitching on the welt. After all, the insole needs to be prepared: blocking, cutting, holdfast as well as pre-perforation will add another four hours or so.

The whole job of hand-welting takes almost a day (maybe six hours) and will add an additional GBP 180 to the wholesale price, or £450-500 ($ 650-725) to the retail price.

That is probably ballpark correct for a pair of shoes, maybe a little bit on the high side. The blocking of the insole doesn't take much time, maybe 15 minutes for a pair. After the insoles have dried, they need to be trimmed. Say another 30 minutes, unless it is insole up in waist, which will add more time for the skiving of the waist extension. Then, cutting the feather -- say another 30 minutes/pair (though I've seen some do it much faster). Then pre-holing the holdfast. Another 30 minutes/pair? And, of course making/plying up the cords, waxing/burnishing, adding the bristles. Certainly another 30 minutes. And making up the welt -- cutting, beveling the edge, cutting/opening a channel. Another 15 minutes/pair. Add 1.5 hours for actually inseaming, and you are around 5 hours/pair. I imagine some can do these things even faster, but I think its a fair ballpark estimate.
post #1110 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

The times quoted here for hand-welting seem to forget (accidentally on purpose?) that there is more work than stitching on the welt. After all, the insole needs to be prepared: blocking, cutting, holdfast as well as pre-perforation will add another four hours or so.

I'm glad you said that. I think you're closer to the mark than 45 minutes, certainly. With drying times after blocking and I generally feather, channel and hole damp, it's a two day prcess for sure.
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