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shoe construction...behind the veil - Page 70

post #1036 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

Disregarding others experiences is a cheap out. Even if their finger nails are clean. Some are willing to share their experiences. Doesn't mean you have to agree. But, don't question their honesty. Even though you started this thread (thank you) if you were truly sincere why take such objection to those with experience that differ with yours?
Maybe add a disclaimer " as policeman do not dare disagree with me. Your experiences are not worthy nor welcomed". Then some of us will get it and won't bother.


First you understand that "clean fingernails" is only a metaphor...for blowing smoke and hot air--un-informed, inexperienced, blather. It's childish...like teenagers with a rat in their gut, arguing for the sake of arguing. It's petulant. And it doesn't contribute anything except contentiousness.

But that's the whole point, isn't it?

If a person doesn't do the work, if they have little or no direct, hands on experience, they cannot know...know, really know...what they are talking about. It's all hearsay-- "The rep from AE told me this, so therefore it must be true." "The guy I've got working for me said such and such, so therefore it must be true." "I read it on the Internet, so therefore it must be true." "I visited a factory once, so therefore it must be true." "I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night so therefore whatever I say must be true."

It's not true...none of it is. It's as phony as it gets.

I do doubt the sincerity of people who don't explain...who only assert.

I claim that GY is a flawed technique that began with an attempt to make the job faster, easier, cheaper while at the same time looking and pretending to be handwelted. The first examples of GYW didn't appear any different than HW and in all probability the customer never knew it wasn't his grandfather's way of making shoes...and the companies didn't bother to enlighten the poor benighted sod.

That same set of circumstances pertains to this day. And consumers all over the world think GYW is the gold standard.

Is it trash?...that's for you to decide. I have never made that case...never used that word...that I can recall.

What I do and have done from the beginning...and no one else does--not you, not chogall, not anyone... is that I detail point by point why it is a flawed and relatively unstable technique relative to HW. I take the time to explain..starting with the history, proceeding to the components...analyzing each one for their reliability and integrity. I examine the techniques employed and the choices that are willingly made and forced upon the makers who use GY. I examine the philosophical and economic underpinnings of making such choices.

None of you do that. And none of you ever have. None of you self-styled keyboard warriors even come close. You couldn't if you tried. You can't be bothered, and you don't have the objective knowledge to do it.

Hell, you can't even read anyone elses posts, you're so desperate to nay-say and get into a "he said, she said." You have the attention spans of fidgety, cornered rats. None of you even bothers to address the fundamental details--the issues I raise in these posts--again, because you can't. It's all meaningless, incoherent, mealy-mouthed words strung together so that they look like they have meaning...kind of like GYW--pretense upon pretense.

I started this thread and one other to limit my remarks, so those who are uncomfortable with the detailed, explicit, inconvenient truth won't have to to confront it. Won't have to walk around with your eyes and ears covered singing lalalala loudly.

Outside of these few threads, I don't actively pursue the GY vs. HW issue. But I will respond.

Yet through all of this...with nothing else to pick at, and nothing to substantiate your POVs, with zero direct, objective experience of your own... and in the face of all that I offer / share (generously) in the way of detail and substantive, corroborating evidence, you all (the usual suspects--the gadflies and nitpickers and weasel-worders) dismiss my experience. You all doubt my sincerity. You all question my honesty...even to the point where you dismiss photos from, not just me but other sources. And feel insulted when you do not receive the respect that you will not extend to me.

It's like arguing with teenagers...or wrestling with pigs...everyone gets dirty but the pigs like it.

Everyone is born ignorant but when you choose to remain ignorant, diss curiousity--that is stupidity.

And when you posture and pretend to experience and knowledge that you don't have, that is dishonest and phony. You cannot lecture anyone about honesty. All you can do is whine and cavil and find fault in the way someone says something rather than the substance of it.

And if such baseless, substance-less, petulant, pretentious blather goes wanting for someone "to bother", I say "Good! Don't let the door hit you on the butt."

--
Edited by DWFII - 2/4/16 at 7:50am
post #1037 of 1515
^^

Funny....you accuse me and others of the very things that you are guilty of.
Phoney? I take issue with some of the sky is falling alarming statements and theories that you spew. For the most part they are theory not reality. I know they are inaccurate from my own experience and IMO that is a disservice to this forum. I could care less about your opinion of my experience. I'm much to much of a confident secure person to give 2 shits about what you think.
For instance, I'm still waiting for even one person to come forward and claim (show me) where a flush mounted metal toe plate (one that we did) damaged their shoe.

I have better more important things than to continue with this.......
post #1038 of 1515
Thread Starter 
^^

to whit...
post #1039 of 1515

An observation:

 

When Jeffrey D or Chris Despos offer insight into tailoring techniques and opinions on construction methods, people listen and take their years of experience and expertise for what it is. 

 

If someone who's experience was limited to wearing or having suits made (@chogall) began arguing with them over technique and construction method, they would be laughed out of the room.

 

Similarly, if an alterations tailor (@Nick V. ) * began arguing with them about pattern making or how best to pad a lapel, they would be shouted down.

 

I wonder why then it seems to have taken root here that there is enough basis of understanding, enough authority of experience to take oppositional positions in this thread? If the opposition came from a place of curiosity or inquisitiveness, I could understand it, but it doesnt. I find this very strange.

 

 

* @Nick V. I mean no disrespect by the above comparison to an alterations tailor. I only mean to highlight that you yourself/ nor your company are makers of shoes, but rather repair and resole them in the same way that alterations tailors do not create garments. 

post #1040 of 1515
DW, I appreciate what you're doing. I had been totally fooled by GYW. Deception offends me.

How does stitchdown compare to Blake Rapid, Blake, and GYW, in terms of durability and resolability?

Thanks.
post #1041 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdavro23 View Post

An observation:

When Jeffrey D or Chris Despos offer insight into tailoring techniques and opinions on construction methods, people listen and take their years of experience and expertise for what it is. 

If someone who's experience was limited to wearing or having suits made (@chogall
) began arguing with them over technique and construction method, they would be laughed out of the room.

Similarly, if an alterations tailor (@Nick V.
 ) * began arguing with them about pattern making or how best to pad a lapel, they would be shouted down.

I wonder why then it seems to have taken root here that there is enough basis of understanding, enough authority of experience to take oppositional positions in this thread? If the opposition came from a place of curiosity or inquisitiveness, I could understand it, but it doesnt. I find this very strange.


* @Nick V.
 I mean no disrespect by the above comparison to an alterations tailor. I only mean to highlight that you yourself/ nor your company are makers of shoes, but rather repair and resole them in the same way that alterations tailors do not create garments. 

BC a lot of the debate is around quality and longevity - and there are plenty of people who have experience wearing shoes for a long time.

It's debate that is infuriating BC it's largely academic. Is hy better? Yes. Will that matter for most people? No.

If we could just agree with that everyone could go on their way
post #1042 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdavro23 View Post


 I mean no disrespect by the above comparison to an alterations tailor. I only mean to highlight that you yourself/ nor your company are makers of shoes, but rather repair and resole them in the same way that alterations tailors do not create garments. 

With all due respect (to all involved) it's not even an accurate comparison. Because an alterations tailor has hands-on experience, he (literally and figuratively) gets his hands dirty. He personally works with the materials and the tools and the techniques.

The alterations tailor actually does it...walks the walk--he doesn't tacitly allow others to believe he does it, even if only by his silence or association.

--
Edited by DWFII - 2/4/16 at 9:25am
post #1043 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by makewayhomer View Post

BC a lot of the debate is around quality and longevity - and there are plenty of people who have experience wearing shoes for a long time.

It's debate that is infuriating BC it's largely academic. Is hy better? Yes. Will that matter for most people? No.

If we could just agree with that everyone could go on their way

BS. At one point or another we have agreed...on that point (and others) ...over and over again ad nauseum. Read post #1019. But the catastrophizers and gadflies won't let it go--it doesn't fit their lala-land, febrile fantasies.

And it's the same people over and over again. I try to keep myself available to answer questions about anything regarding shoemaking techniques (and yes, for the incurious it's all academic, so why are they in this thread?) and invariably chogall jumps in and close behind Nck or someone like him who actually have nothing to say or contribute except "no, it's not."

And when I move most of my comments into a new thread--one that is again, for the lay person and the incurious, admittedly academic--they follow me.

Go back to page 64 (?) in this thread...read through it again until you can determine where this particular controversy started.

--
post #1044 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by makewayhomer View Post

BC a lot of the debate is around quality and longevity - and there are plenty of people who have experience wearing shoes for a long time.

It's debate that is infuriating BC it's largely academic. Is hy better? Yes. Will that matter for most people? No.

If we could just agree with that everyone could go on their way

I agree with your first sentence--it would be better not to talk too hastily about "best methods," because there so many factors that go into a judgment that something is the best. Let's primarily debate instead what methods provide a more durable shoe, which ones a more comfortable, which ones a shoe that fits better, etc. On those questions, the users' experiences and the cobblers' experiences are just as valuable as the makers' experiences.

I disagree with your second sentence. It's not largely academic. DWF is trying to save the craft of bespoke hand-welted bootmaking. He believes that there are many who don't care that hand-welted or bespoke is better--construction and fit-wise. At least, there aren't enough who care enough to buy it instead of lots of pairs of expensive GYW ready-mades. He also believes that unless those people change their minds and start to care enough to buy HW bespoke, the craft of bespoke hand-welted bootmaking will die, and soon. I think he may well be right in all of these beliefs.
post #1045 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

I to have several decades experience. I won't dispute the fact that HW is a superior construction than gemmed. However, IMO the argument is overblown in terms of the failure rate VS the cost of the 2 methods. Add to that every business including bespoke NEEDS to make a profit. Needless to say it's important for any business to meet the demands of their market. Fact is it would be impossible to supply the demands of the men's shoe market if the factories were to continue using the HW process. Machinery is an absolute need in order to supply the consumer demands.

Like it or not you can't stop progress.

This argument is what big capital wants us to believe, not what really is true. What market demand are you talking about? People that can't afford decent shoes certainly do not buy GYW. Those that do, buy too many pairs that they don't need, thinking they are buying best of the best, because someone created that market, not because there is real need for it.

Having clean drinking water is progress, being able to afford 20 pair of GYW shoes is not.

If someone who "needs" 20 pairs of factory shoes, instead decides to get 5 pairs of hand made shoes, I don't think employment numbers would collapse. It's just factory workers would need to become artisans, producing less but more expensive pairs of shoes, and why is that bad?

At the end of the day, its about folks like me, consumers. I have decided long time ago, since I am lucky to be able to afford decent shoes, they will be hand made. I am also lucky to know East European maker who satisfies all my needs for fair price, and I will probably never own 20 pairs of shoes.
post #1046 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post

DW, I appreciate what you're doing. I had been totally fooled by GYW. Deception offends me.

How does stitchdown compare to Blake Rapid, Blake, and GYW, in terms of durability and resolability?

Thanks.

At its most basic...poorly in my opinion. I have never done very many stitchdowns, but of those I have done and seen, all have a somewhat fatal drawback ...if you start with the maker's assumption that any weakness or flaw that is avoidable is unacceptable.

Every new outsole has to be trimmed. and trimming slowly cuts away at the leather that comprises the stitched down edge. Eventually there's not enough left to resole, much less even save the shoe. Some 'cobblers' get crazy and that can happen first time out. Some cobblers who claim to be cobblers, aren't really craftsmen and don't think about such things because they didn't make it that way in the first place.
post #1047 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdavro23 View Post

I wonder why then it seems to have taken root here that there is enough basis of understanding, enough authority of experience to take oppositional positions in this thread? If the opposition came from a place of curiosity or inquisitiveness, I could understand it, but it doesnt. I find this very strange.

Aside from the fact that it is almost always the same people...I am a person that even at 70 years of age has never stopped believing in the basic reasonablity and intelligence of people.

Silence...even contemptuous silence, which is what most of these people deserve...seems too much like "giving up"--on them, on faith, on truth, on people, in general.

And...in all candor...I'm like a foolish trout sometimes--all too willing to rise to the fly. [sigh...you have to play the cards that are dealt to you].
post #1048 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post

I agree with your first sentence--it would be better not to talk too hastily about "best methods," because there so many factors that go into a judgment that something is the best. Let's primarily debate instead what methods provide a more durable shoe, which ones a more comfortable, which ones a shoe that fits better, etc. On those questions, the users' experiences and the cobblers' experiences are just as valuable as the makers' experiences.

I disagree with your second sentence. It's not largely academic. DWF is trying to save the craft of bespoke hand-welted bootmaking. He believes that there are many who don't care that hand-welted or bespoke is better--construction and fit-wise. At least, there aren't enough who care enough to buy it instead of lots of pairs of expensive GYW ready-mades. He also believes that unless those people change their minds and start to care enough to buy HW bespoke, the craft of bespoke hand-welted bootmaking will die, and soon. I think he may well be right in all of these beliefs.

The crafts of shoemaking can't exactly be saved by a great and unknown shoemaker cutting his own ears off and then suiciding.

It really takes the patrons to bespoke makers to save traditional shoemaking. And marketers. Not DWFII's smear campaign of "hey your GYW shoes were inferiorly made by lazy cost cutting profit seeking greedy manufacturers."

Unfortunately DWFII also looked down on shoemaking workshops where makers are assigned to different stations and not solo making shoes from inception to the delivery.
post #1049 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post


I disagree with your second sentence. It's not largely academic. DWF is trying to save the craft of bespoke hand-welted bootmaking. He believes that there are many who don't care that hand-welted or bespoke is better--construction and fit-wise. At least, there aren't enough who care enough to buy it instead of lots of pairs of expensive GYW ready-mades. He also believes that unless those people change their minds and start to care enough to buy HW bespoke, the craft of bespoke hand-welted bootmaking will die, and soon. I think he may well be right in all of these beliefs.


What I find interesting thing is that when you cut through all the incoherent, subjective BS, I am...and always have been...advocating for a better shoe. Better made, better prices, less deception, more responsibility, and knowledge and understanding for the consumer.

Everything Chogall and Nick and others like them are saying boils down to "Don't worry, be happy." And "stay ignorant--it's all academic and inconsequential." They advocate for cheaper and unremarkable and placatory.

That's why meaningless sophomoric generalizations are their modus operandi. (see above)
post #1050 of 1515
How many hours, from first contact with a customer to he or she walking around happily, does it take for an experienced, talented, cordwainer to make a new set of lasts and footwear? Of course, I am interested in an average, a generalization.

Next question. How many hours, assuming reasonable innate talent, would it take a young person to become "experienced?"

As we enter a world where there is a huge over-supply of labor, many people would be delighted to earn a very basic living making quality footwear...

As we enter a world where the supply of commodities decreases ever-more relative to the population, do we not all want to use those limited commodities to make the very best, longest-lasting footwear?

If a man who has shared his unparalleled (here, at least) experience wants to start a thread and specify how that thread proceeds, doesn't he have the right to do that? Can people not give him that?
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