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shoe construction...behind the veil - Page 69

post #1021 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by makewayhomer View Post

The problem with the "AE buyers don't look for quality argument" is that the vast majority of those shoes will last exactly as long as their owners care for them to.

Yes they are lower quality than what you produce, but mainly in an academic way. Like a car that will drive for 300,000 miles instead of another that will last for 250,000. Yes it's better from a longevity POV but most folks will never actually experience that benefit

The very same argument can be made about the leather in an inexpensive pair of shoes vs. the leather in a high end MTM GY shoe. It will last as long as the owners want them to. The same can be said about the general aesthetics and the shape of the lasts and the toes styles and blah blah blah yada yada yada. Everything SF people obsess about and chew their nails over.

Your observation while not entirely correct...or even acceptable...from a maker's perspective, is, when you really get down to it, just another rationalization and a dumbing down of the very concept of quality.

Again it is, on the face of it, incoherent...esp. when taken in the context of this forum.
post #1022 of 1515
That's not too downplay what I think could be the massive benefits of bespoke shoes. It's just that when I see "worn once" AE and vintage Florsheim sell for $100 on eBay that I know the longevity arguments for spending much more are bunk.

Certainly there are other reasons though
post #1023 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by makewayhomer View Post

That's not too downplay what I think could be the massive benefits of bespoke shoes. It's just that when I see "worn once" AE and vintage Florsheim sell for $100 on eBay that I know the longevity arguments for spending much more are bunk.

Certainly there are other reasons though

You're right and you're wrong.

All other things being equal a handwelted shoe will invariably last longer than a GY shoe esp. when you consider that to reach those limits the GY shoe will almost certainly have to be rebuilt--relasted,new insoles, new gemming, new welt.

But the fact is we have no way to make "all other things equal." Some people will wear their shoes faster than others. Some won't take care of them very well. Some will wear them in carpeted offices, some will wear them on city sidewalks. Sometimes the fit is so horrific the shoes are only good for one, probably uncomfortable, wearing before they go to the auction block.

Most of the shoes we have in museums, if not made specifically for show , are there because they didn't get worn--too uncomfortable. Shoes that fit get worn to death.
post #1024 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

But you do correct shoemakers...it wasn't so long ago that you took me to task for something...related to English welting.

As for my strategy, As much as possible, I use the lexicon that shoemakers have evolved over 10,000 years for the same reason every profession has it's unique terminology. Because shoemaking is the subject. Because, generally speaking shoemakers understand each other.

It's simply lazy and another example of your incurious approach. "You know nothing, Jon Snow." And yet you presume to lecture.

When a person is as incurious as you admit you are, or pretends to a knowledge that he doesn't have, he loses all cred in my book.

I did not. I was just curious why you've adopted Mrsan's term of German welt instead of the more common term of blind welt.

And your response was he's a "master shoemaker" and I am not a shoemaker, while ignoring the fact that it's more common to describe it as blind welt by other bespoke shoemakers.

Logic extend much beyond "I am a shoemaker, you are not".
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Well, no offense but that's why I'm a shoemaker and you're not....and probably never will be...will probably never understand. Read my signature. I think that all good makers have to have a hierarchy of quality firmly affixed in mind. And that implies, even demands, that a person look at the world in black and white to some extent. If you're going to reach for excellence there can be no such thing as "relative quality." If you live in a grey scale world you cannot make a clean cut.
See my responses above. Adhesives aren't the problem it's the expectations that adhesive can magically stand in for better, more appropriate methods. It betrays a fundamental laziness. And an unequivocal dismissal of any objective standard of quality.

--

Excellence in what? Making the best shoes? Putting shoes in everyone's feet? Making the most comfortable shoes?

Being a good bespoke shoemaker does not necessarily have to discredit the techniques used by industrial shoemakers; it takes years of training to excel in both areas, traditional or not.
post #1025 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdavro23 View Post

Again, I feel compelled to take issue with your use of the word progress. As the owner of a fair few pairs of Allen Edmonds, one pair I am wearing as I type this message, I can confirm that the quality is horrendous. They are, in short, unmitigated pieces of shit. The quality even over the last few years has nose dived dramatically and is actually part of their business model at this point. They sell so many second quality shoes through their outlet that it would actually hurt their business to make a better product and cut down on mistakes. If that is progress, you keep it. 

Now, from a purely economic stand point, yes, they employee people and there is a run on effect from that. However, to put it closer to home, B. Nelson is generally regarded as one of the top shoe repair firms in the US. As the standard bearer of quality, if @Nick V.
 chose to make the quality of his repairs shit in order to service more customers, and the net effect of that is to lower the standard of repairs in general, then we are all for the worse. Again, if that is progress, you keep it.

Funny the opposite happened to me. FWIW, I purchased the business from my Father. I grew it to 4 stores in prime locations in NYC employing 40 people. That's when I started to hate it. I found I was loosing control of quality. I would have my day planned only to get a phone call that a manager or shoemaker would not be able to come in causing me to shuffle people around and scraping my planned day. I decided to scale down in order to focus on my priory servicing the high-grades. I was making more money then but, focusing on a smaller market and quality is more gratifying to me at least. Either way I make a living.

I agree with most of what DW wrote in his post 1019 of this thread.

It's only fair to compare apples to apples. Just agreeing that HW is superior to GY may be a fact but is the cost difference (in most cases) worth it? That's the question....
A few years back my Brother and I decided to do an experiment. We went to two dealerships to compare a Toyota to a Lexus. Was the Lexus built better, more solid? Yes was it worth the difference in price? Not for my money. But that's just me. On the other hand from time to time I tell customers we are not for everybody. If you are looking to save a few bucks, the guy down the street will do it cheaper. Just don't expect to get the same quality materials and workmanship.

We all pick our niches depending on our objectives. Compare the thread titled "AE appreciation thread" it was started 9/27/09. As I type it was at 4691 pages, 70,351 replies, 6,337,630 views. Or the AE made to order thread started 2/28/14 9,020 pages 566,533 replies to that one. Clearly different markets and objectives then we are discussing here. Yes, you will find derogatory comments about AE quality but, it's clear that their C.S. is hands on ready, willing and able to rectify all legitimate complaints. Compare that to Aldens whose quality is better but IMO not enough to justify the difference in price. Alden's C.S. is basically nonexistent in the event you may need them. Pick your poison.
Both satisfy their market demands.

Further, We have wholesale accounts with several high-grade companies. Some of their customers will buy 6 or 7 pair of the same shoe, same color. Why? because they have a pair of each sent to each of their homes. Even though money is no object to those customers having a hand welted shoe made in that quantity is not worth the wait to them. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but, I suspect it's rare.

The spectrum is large but, comparing apples to apples and understanding a customers needs (practicality) to me is more important than just stating what method is superior esp. since (all things considered) the difference is really not that significant.
post #1026 of 1515
It's imperative to compare Apple to Apple, the same construction method, or the same stage of process, i.e., clicking with clicking, pattern with pattern, GYW vs GYW, hand welted vs hand welted.

Otherwise we will continue to see shit shows claiming GYW is lazy, bad, cost cutting, etc vs HW, which might not be true. Case in fact: the clicking pattern making and lasting slills with JL limited edition shoes are surperb despite their GYW construction. And it would be nice to not fixate on its GYE deficiencies and discuss other aspects of shoemaking.
post #1027 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

And it would be nice to not fixate on its GYE deficiencies and discuss other aspects of shoemaking.

I'm sure it would. See no evil, hear no evil Lalalalala.

Find yourself another thread to disrupt or create one. The several of you who have zero experience in either industrial or bespoke making ought to start a your own Fantasy Shoemaking Thread...you know, like a Fantasy Football league. For clueless wannabe's. Or not even wannabes...just gadflies and Google gurus

The bottom line is that you don't know what you're talking about. And nothing short of doing it yourself will give you any cred. Not reading, not talking to other equally clueless groupies, not even hiring someone to do the work for you. And damn sure not the pipe dreams and woo-woo stuff you come up with.

If your hands aren't dirty, you're blowing smoke.

This was meant to be a serious thread and you fellers are jokers. You contribute nothing of substance just a lot of spurious and petulant dissonance.
post #1028 of 1515
Topic is shoe construction behind the veil, not GYW bashing thread or a shoemaker only thread.

And most if not all of us agree that HW is better construction method vs GYW...
post #1029 of 1515
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Topic is shoe construction behind the veil, not GYW bashing thread or a shoemaker only thread.

And most if not all of us agree that HW is better construction method vs GYW...

I started this thread...don't tell me what the topic or purpose is. If you don't want to hear about the real and demonstrable deficiencies of GYW, or celastic or cement construction or leatherboard...the solution is simple-- "Just say no." Or start your own thread: Chogall's Fantasy Footwear Thread--Where the Veil Begins. Find some other thread and some other people to bug.

If your hands aren't working the only thing left is your mouth. And that's about all that is. You can't blow away "the veil."

Truth to tell, you can't and couldn't speak knowledgeably or in detail about any technique...without prompting. You can't speak from experience and so everything you say is a parroting of something you heard somewhere or something someone told you. It's like you're a sad copy of Charlie McCarthy.

Whether you believe it or not everyone in this thread knows that.

Sometimes i wonder if you're even a real person. Your only purpose ...you and the usual suspects...seems to be to create dissension by pretending to knowledge and experience you don't have. That's nearly the definition of a phony.

--
Edited by DWFII - 2/3/16 at 8:50pm
post #1030 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


I started this thread...don't tell me what the topic or purpose is. If you don't want to hear about the real and demonstrable deficiencies of GYW, or celastic or cement construction or leatherboard...the solution is simple-- "Just say no." Or start your own thread: Chogall's Fantasy Footwear Thread--Where the Veil Begins. Find some other thread and some other people to bug.

If your hands aren't working the only thing left is your mouth. And that's about all that is. You can't blow away "the veil."

Truth to tell, you can't and couldn't speak knowledgeably or in detail about any technique...without prompting. You can't speak from experience and so everything you say is a parroting of something you heard somewhere or something someone told you. It's like you're a sad copy of Charlie McCarthy.

Whether you believe it or not everyone in this thread knows that.

Sometimes i wonder if you're even a real person. Your only purpose ...you and the usual suspects...seems to be to create dissension by pretending to knowledge and experience you don't have. That's nearly the definition of a phony.

--

 

Rare to see such a small minded creature. I am sure you can do better.

post #1031 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I'm sure it would. See no evil, hear no evil Lalalalala.

Find yourself another thread to disrupt or create one. The several of you who have zero experience in either industrial or bespoke making ought to start a your own Fantasy Shoemaking Thread...you know, like a Fantasy Football league. For clueless wannabe's. Or not even wannabes...just gadflies and Google gurus

The bottom line is that you don't know what you're talking about. And nothing short of doing it yourself will give you any cred. Not reading, not talking to other equally clueless groupies, not even hiring someone to do the work for you. And damn sure not the pipe dreams and woo-woo stuff you come up with.

If your hands aren't dirty, you're blowing smoke.

This was meant to be a serious thread and you fellers are jokers. You contribute nothing of substance just a lot of spurious and petulant dissonance.

Disregarding others experiences is a cheap out. Even if their finger nails are clean. Some are willing to share their experiences. Doesn't mean you have to agree. But, don't question their honesty. Even though you started this thread (thank you) if you were truly sincere why take such objection to those with experience that differ with yours?
Maybe add a disclaimer " as policeman do not dare disagree with me. Your experiences are not worthy nor welcomed". Then some of us will get it and won't bother.
post #1032 of 1515
DWF, with all due respect, I feel as if I've read your same posts numerous times in numerous threads. HE > GYW because gemming. I don't think anyone here is denying that HW is superior to GYW, just defending the construction as not the piece of garbage it's being written as. Surely a GYW is better than a full cement shoe, that much you can swallow.

The only reasons things are getting heated in this thread is because you're essentially asserting that GYW is trash, and others say "it's really not that bad."
post #1033 of 1515

Yes, GYW certainly does not equate with trash. Even staying away from the issue of the excellent quality of the upper part of the many GYW shoes, even more average models last a suprisingly long time. I have many pairs that I've worn regularly for 15+, some 20+ years, without any signs of gemming failure, and when I've taken old shoes apart (always because the uppers are too worn) the gemming has still been intact. I feel, perhaps, that the confort of the footbed on HW shoes is the main argument in their favour. Certainly the cork filler deteriorates.

post #1034 of 1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

I to have several decades experience. I won't dispute the fact that HW is a superior construction than gemmed. However, IMO the argument is overblown in terms of the failure rate VS the cost of the 2 methods. Add to that every business including bespoke NEEDS to make a profit. Needless to say it's important for any business to meet the demands of their market. Fact is it would be impossible to supply the demands of the men's shoe market if the factories were to continue using the HW process. Machinery is an absolute need in order to supply the consumer demands.

Like it or not you can't stop progress.

But that is debatable, no? It would certainly help solve the unemployment problem.

post #1035 of 1515
I'm not bothered by DWF's fire and brimstone. I think it serves a useful purpose. A lot of people--and note, this is usually only after reading DWF's disquisitions--say that "Yes, hand-welted is better than GYW, bespoke is better than ready-made." But what do they do? A lot of them buy 15 pair of GYW ready-mades at 700 USD and up, a few hand-welteds from Vass or Bonafe, and 0 pairs of bespoke. Think of Nick V's story of the rich guys who buy six pairs of the same ready-made GYW shoe. That strikes me as just sad, and a perfect example of what DWF is railing against. With that kind of money, why not get 2 or 3 pairs of bespoke, hand-welted shoes? Why not have enough of the best, rather than lots of the pretty good? Judging from posts on SF, the vast majority of shoe aficionados go for lots of the pretty good. The more that mentality prevails, the greater the danger for bespoke makers and those making truly hand-made shoes. And if they disappear, what will happen to bootmaking? Standards will inevitably go down, because no one will know what truly good fit is, or what really good construction is.

I also wonder whether much of the annoyance with DWF doesn't stem from something he's implying: that most GYW shoes are no better constructed than a lot of Blake-stitched shoes, and quite possibly worse. stirpot.gif
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