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Death or This God-awful threak? - Page 17

post #241 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post
Now do you understand what I am explaining to your or not? Do you agree that you were mistaken, that personhood is a philosophical concept and that it is open to discussion?
I understood it before you explained it, so yes. The idea is that the same ways we consider humans to be people can also be applied to dolphins. I don't think the intention was to go in depth philosophically.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redcaimen View Post
Effectively skinning a live cat would be next to impossible. Scientists dont draw "conclusions" like this. The above is psuedo scientific gibberish.
The post said animals, not just cats. Watch the videos and you'll know. It's not pseudo-science. "New research shows that dolphins are as intelligent as human children — leading some scientists to argue the mammals are "non-human persons" posted on January 5, 2010 Dolphins deserve human rights. That's the statement being made by scientists at Emory University in Atlanta, who say that the mammals are so intelligent they deserve the status of "non-human persons." After years of studying dolphin brains, the researchers have concluded that aquatic mammals are more mentally advanced than chimpanzees, placing them second only to humans. Lori Marino, a zoologist at Emory, says that there is a strong “psychological continuity” between humans and dolphins that requires they be given the status of equals. Is it time to start treating dolphins like people?" http://theweek.com/article/index/104...ins-people-too
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
You usually ignore the main points in my replies anyway, so I didn't think you expected a response. In response to your post: They think dolphins are dolphins. They do not think dolphins are people, but of course that thought is not limited to the fishermen of Taiji.
You have it the other way around. They don't need to think of dolphins as people. You defend them saying the dolphin intelligence and consciousness shouldn't matter when the people killing the dolphins think they are fish. They don't even know their cognitive abilities, let alone what kind of animals they are.
post #242 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosu3 View Post
I understood it before you explained it, so yes. The idea is that the same ways we consider humans to be people can also be applied to dolphins. I don't think the intention was to go in depth philosophically. The post said animals, not just cats. Watch the videos and you'll know. It's not pseudo-science. "New research shows that dolphins are as intelligent as human children — leading some scientists to argue the mammals are "non-human persons" posted on January 5, 2010 Dolphins deserve human rights. That's the statement being made by scientists at Emory University in Atlanta, who say that the mammals are so intelligent they deserve the status of "non-human persons." After years of studying dolphin brains, the researchers have concluded that aquatic mammals are more mentally advanced than chimpanzees, placing them second only to humans. Lori Marino, a zoologist at Emory, says that there is a strong “psychological continuity” between humans and dolphins that requires they be given the status of equals. Is it time to start treating dolphins like people?" http://theweek.com/article/index/104...ins-people-too You have it the other way around. They don't need to think of dolphins as people. You defend them saying the dolphin intelligence and consciousness shouldn't matter when the people killing the dolphins think they are fish. They don't even know their cognitive abilities, let alone what kind of animals they are.
You still do not understand it, you seem to be almost incapable of theoretical thinking. We might consider all humans to attain the level of "personhood" but it is not a given, throughout history various groups have been included or excluded. Personhood isn't a stable concept and its definition varies, you can't even say "we consider humans to be persons", maybe I don't agree all humans are... This, of course, says nothing of how western-centric the idea of "personhood" is. AFAIK it isn't even an element of, say, classical eastern thinking. A few points: -researchers may make observations about a dolphins intelligence and socialization and this stays into the realm of science. When they make a call for their inclusion into a group called "non-human persons" they are not voicing a scientific opinion but an ethical one. It is not pseudo-science but simply not science at all. They are of course entitled to do that as citizens having access to a public platorm. -we are not "going in depth philosophically", you just have to understand that, want it or not, when you are voicing an opinion or presenting an argument regarding the personhood of dolphins, the treatment of animals or any other issues you are engaging in philosophical musings, namely ones regarding the realm of ethics. That you do it without any method or coherent form of argumentation and from a position of complete ignorance of ethics just makes it bad philosophy. I am not sure why you do it and expect to convince anyone, well maybe that is not your goal. -Saying fishermen are not aware of the congitive abilities of dolphin is probably true. However, for the reasons I explained, you can't make the jump from "knowledge of dolphins cognitive ability" to "declaration of dolphins as persons" to "dolphins have the following rights". The arguments you present have more holes than actual points. Now, do you REALLY understand what I just said?
post #243 of 345
Fuuma, leave Nosu alone. We need your argumentative talents in the I am not a Fake Thread. Jeromes been drinking again!
post #244 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosu3 View Post
"New research shows that dolphins are as intelligent as human children "” leading some scientists to argue the mammals are "non-human persons"
posted on January 5, 2010

Pigeons are as smart as human children too, but they are not people...they are pigeons.
post #245 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
Pigeons are as smart as human children too, but they are not people...they are pigeons.

Being a person is not necessarily synonym with being human though, read my last two posts for an explanation.
post #246 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by redcaimen View Post
Fuuma, leave Nosu alone. We need your argumentative talents in the I am not a Fake Thread. Jeromes been drinking again!

Jerome is an habitual glue-sniffer and I am not drunk enough for him right now.
post #247 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
Pigeons are as smart as human children too, but they are not people...they are pigeons.

I don't think we can fully compare the intelligence of an animal to a child, especially when "child" can mean a variety of ages and levels of cognitive development. Also, pigeons don't have social networking close to humans, like dolphins do.
post #248 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosu3 View Post
I don't think we can fully compare the intelligence of an animal to a child, especially when "child" can mean a variety of ages and levels of cognitive development.
lolque
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosu3 View Post
It's not pseudo-science. "New research shows that dolphins are as intelligent as human children — leading some scientists to argue the mammals are "non-human persons" posted on January 5, 2010
post #249 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwilkinson View Post



lolque

I can read, I still don't agree with the headline. Pigs are as intelligent as a 3 year old child, so are dolphins and pigs equally intelligent? no.
post #250 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post
You still do not understand it, you seem to be almost incapable of theoretical thinking. We might consider all humans to attain the level of "personhood" but it is not a given, throughout history various groups have been included or excluded. Personhood isn't a stable concept and its definition varies, you can't even say "we consider humans to be persons", maybe I don't agree all humans are... This, of course, says nothing of how western-centric the idea of "personhood" is. AFAIK it isn't even an element of, say, classical eastern thinking.

Yes, I get it, but I don't think the purpose of the article was to be in depth enough to consider "personhood not being a stable concept". I agree with you and that personhood is not a stable concept and may not even be applicable to all humans, in a sense. The purpose of "dolphins are people" is to point out that many ways in which humans may be viewed as "people" can also be applied to dolphins.

I also know that the scientists were making an ethical opinion as a result of a scientific conclusion. No arguing that.
post #251 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosu3 View Post
I understood it before you explained it, so yes. The idea is that the same ways we consider humans to be people can also be applied to dolphins. I don't think the intention was to go in depth philosophically. The post said animals, not just cats. Watch the videos and you'll know. It's not pseudo-science. "New research shows that dolphins are as intelligent as human children "” leading some scientists to argue the mammals are "non-human persons" posted on January 5, 2010 Dolphins deserve human rights. That's the statement being made by scientists at Emory University in Atlanta, who say that the mammals are so intelligent they deserve the status of "non-human persons." After years of studying dolphin brains, the researchers have concluded that aquatic mammals are more mentally advanced than chimpanzees, placing them second only to humans. Lori Marino, a zoologist at Emory, says that there is a strong "psychological continuity" between humans and dolphins that requires they be given the status of equals. Is it time to start treating dolphins like people?" http://theweek.com/article/index/104...ins-people-too You have it the other way around. They don't need to think of dolphins as people. You defend them saying the dolphin intelligence and consciousness shouldn't matter when the people killing the dolphins think they are fish. They don't even know their cognitive abilities, let alone what kind of animals they are.
A number of philosophers would say that "people" are rational beings, and children (and, for that matter mentally challenged individuals) do not have the capacity to be fully rational therefore your dolphins being as intelligent as children is a moot point.
post #252 of 345
dolphins can never pay taxes, and therefore they are NOT humans!
post #253 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitAkira View Post
A number of philosophers would say that "people" are rational beings, and children (and, for that matter mentally challenged individuals) do not have the capacity to be fully rational therefore your dolphins being as intelligent as children is a moot point.

Pretty sure I just got done saying dolphin intelligence isn't fully comparable to human children and it wasn't a point at all...
post #254 of 345
Then why should we consider them people? You're digging a deep hole of stupidity
post #255 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitAkira View Post
Then why should we consider them people? You're digging a deep hole of stupidity



I'm laughing at all of you trying to talk rationally or logically to Nosu. Quit feeding the trolls.
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