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Death or This God-awful threak? - Page 14

post #196 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valor View Post
I'm not against vegetarianism as a whole, I just find it funny picking at their justification/reasoning for being vegetarian. Vegetarians, like most people are irrational but don't really realize it, which is why its so fun. I also think its hilarious when vegetarians are militant about it.

In the future, if you're vegetarian, just take the "religious reasons" route, it'll make it much easier when you realize your position is more or less indefensible, at least blanket vegetarianism is.


Someone doesn't agree with pigs being killed/tortured for pork, so they stop supporting it by not buying or eating pork.

What don't you understand?
post #197 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwilkinson View Post
"Indefensible?" How much more of a reason does someone need than doing it because it's what they choose?

I'm talking about rational/logically basis.
post #198 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by samus View Post
That's rich. There are people here asking if oral sex is vegan, and I'm the one with the teenage mentality.

I'm not claiming to be enlightened, avant-garde, or anything else. Vegetarianism does not confer saintliness. I'm not even one of them! I just think people deserve to be called on it when they say stupid things or make illogical arguments (see, e.g., "If I had my way IRL, all vegetarians and vegans would be shot;" "vegan parents are negligent")

I'm not the only one to have noticed the irrational response vegetarians and vegans get - some here have said the same thing, others here have demonstrated it, and I know people that get the same stupid flack every single day (the bingo board didn't come from thin air). I'm not imagining it, just offering an explanation.

I also hope you've noticed how irrational the whole "Meat is murder" thing is? I have offered an explanation why some folks react to vegans the way they do: because vegan opinion makers/activists cause these reactions. Further, while I am unaware of physical harm planned and executed premeditatively against vegans, I've actualy been at locations where paint was tossed on Cyrus, seen video of people minding their own business and getting very expensive furs ruined, etc. While it is egregiously silly to talk about rounding up vegans and shooting them, the fact of the matter is, vegans have actually hurt and threatened people. The move from random i-net posts to IRL harm is something that cannot be ignored in this conversation.

Yes, you are offering up an explanation. I am not finding it a good one. Why? I don't see this ethical discomfort you think meat eaters have.
post #199 of 345
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valor View Post
I'm talking about rational/logically basis.
I don't think you understand what those things are. You disagree with their premises, not their logic. [/foo]
post #200 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosu3 View Post
Personally, I don't have a clear line. I focus mostly on the cognition of animal species and its closeness/similarities to humans. From an environmentalist perspective, I'd be concerned with more things like sustainability, endangered species, or just unnecessary killing.

Tell me, in which ways can we relate to plants as we can animals?
.

are you really this dense? you can relate to plants becasue they avoid dmage to their body like anyother living organism and alos try to produce themselves as much as possible. why does plant that as part of it´s bodyin the shade seems to point itself to the where sunlight reaches? but can explain how humans relate animals? if your answer is they feel pain, clearly so do plants.
post #201 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by iammatt View Post
I don't think you understand what those things are. You disagree with their premises, not their logic. [/foo]
You're right, I shouldn't have used "basis", but it's not actually the premise which I'm arguing against, but rather the logical conclusion from whichever premises they chose. For instance sustainability usually leads to being able to eat fish. Empathy for human-like usually ends at mammals. Pain/suffering usually lets you eat shellfish. etc Blanket vegetarianism as mostly seen today from people who aren't in it for religious reasons (mostly Hindus) is mostly illogical. Even Peter Singer can't come up with a good argument against eating oysters.
post #202 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post
I also hope you've noticed how irrational the whole "Meat is murder" thing is? I have offered an explanation why some folks react to vegans the way they do: because vegan opinion makers/activists cause these reactions. Further, while I am unaware of physical harm planned and executed premeditatively against vegans, I've actualy been at locations where paint was tossed on Cyrus, seen video of people minding their own business and getting very expensive furs ruined, etc. While it is egregiously silly to talk about rounding up vegans and shooting them, the fact of the matter is, vegans have actually hurt and threatened people. The move from random i-net posts to IRL harm is something that cannot be ignored in this conversation.

Yes, you are offering up an explanation. I am not finding it a good one. Why? I don't see this ethical discomfort you think meat eaters have.

You shouldn't generalize an entire movement based on the actions of some people who take extreme measures. It isn't the veganism/vegetarianism that is responsible either, you are mentioning aggressive animal rights activists who may be (though they probably are) vegetarian or vegan.

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post #203 of 345
I wouldn't mind being vegan if it were my only option. I just don't like most vegans I meet.
post #204 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosu3 View Post
You shouldn't generalize an entire movement based on the actions of some people who take extreme measures. It isn't the veganism/vegetarianism that is responsible either, you are mentioning aggressive animal rights activists who may be (though they probably are) vegetarian or vegan.


I'm confused. Why should I not generalize when the pro-vegan folks here have done nothing but generalize? That was rather my point.
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post #205 of 345
I was once at a reading by Isaac Bashevis Singer, who was a vegetarian. Asked about his vegetarianism, he replied, "I have never heard a carrot scream."

Whether carrots scream in a way inaudible to human ears, I do not know.

I get his point, but I am not a vegetarian these days.
post #206 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophe View Post
I was once at a reading by Isaac Bashevis Singer, who was a vegetarian. Asked about his vegetarianism, he replied, "I have never heard a carrot scream."

Whether carrots scream in a way inaudible to human ears, I do not know.

I get his point, but I am not a vegetarian these days.

I've always loved that statement. Morality by audibility. This would be why you gag people and put in ear plugs before you torture them, right?
post #207 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post
I've always loved that statement. Morality by audibility. This would be why you gag people and put in ear plugs before you torture them, right?

I draw the line at wearing gloves. Its just so impersonal.
post #208 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by samus View Post
Right - and suffering should be minimized. Vegans would say that using animals to create food products is inherently harmful, whereas the suffering and environmental problems created by vegetable agriculture are not at all inherent, and can be mitigated or stopped using proper techniques. E.g., crop rotation, organics, etc.

I think the problems are equal (meat & veggie agriculture). When you need to mass produce cheap beef, or veggies, the environment is going to suffer. You mention that the problems can be mitigated in vegetable agriculture, but of course they could be mitigated in raising cows as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samus View Post
I'm not vegetarian and I think this is largely true. At least as it is currently practiced. If every farm was Polyface farm and not monstrous CAFOs we'd be having a different discussion.

If everyone converts to vegetarianism (as people like Nosu propose), the mass production necessary to feed everyone will create environmental problems as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samus View Post
You're setting up the perfect as the enemy of the good. Are there problems with vegetable agriculture? Of course. Are they fixable? Yes. But if you're vegan, and you believe that using animals is wrong, there's no getting around that.

As I pointed out above, there are problems with all types of agriculture, and they can be fixed. The cows I eat are treated better than most members on SF, on the other hand the vegetables most vegetarians eat are raised without regard for anything but cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samus View Post
I haven't seen anyone proposing that at all. If you notice, this thread was started calling out vegans and vegetarians, not the other way around.

I don't agree
post #209 of 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
I think the problems are equal (meat & veggie agriculture). When you need to mass produce cheap beef, or veggies, the environment is going to suffer. You mention that the problems can be mitigated in vegetable agriculture, but of course they could be mitigated in raising cows as well.


If everyone converts to vegetarianism (as people like Nosu propose), the mass production necessary to feed everyone will create environmental problems as well.


As I pointed out above, there are problems with all types of agriculture, and they can be fixed. The cows I eat are treated better than most members on SF, on the other hand the vegetables most vegetarians eat are raised without regard for anything but cost.

I don't agree

Did you just read too fast, or are you deliberately and selectively ignoring things I said?

I agree that the environmental impact of raising livestock can be mitigated. But if you actually read what I wrote, for vegans there's no way to mitigate away what animal agriculture actually, intentionally does - kill animals. That's what "inherent" means. Whereas if you're equally concerned with the environmental impact of vegetable farming, those ill effects can be mitigated without having to give up the entire enterprise.
post #210 of 345
I think we need a group hug and then a tofu burger. No bun for me, as I'm out to save the carbs.
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