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The Ultimate "HARDCORE" Shoe Porn Thread (Bespoke only) - Page 211

post #3151 of 3165

@j ingevaldsson When Dean measured me, he traced side profile of my feet but didn't use the foam box.  Is the way he measures specific to himself or is the house' measuring process evolving?

post #3152 of 3165
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post
 

@j ingevaldsson When Dean measured me, he traced side profile of my feet but didn't use the foam box.  Is the way he measures specific to himself or is the house' measuring process evolving?

 

Yeah forgot to mention that, Daniel also traced the side profile. The foam box as explained is something he only use sometimes. 

post #3153 of 3165
Got it.

I am happy that G&G has in house makers nowadays.

I love Shoji's work. Very inconspicuous, understated, and yet flashy, in an Zen way. Or wabi sabi if you will.
post #3154 of 3165
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Got it.

I am happy that G&G has in house makers nowadays.

I love Shoji's work. Very inconspicuous, understated, and yet flashy, in an Zen way. Or wabi sabi if you will.

Well they sort of don't have an in house maker nowadays either, or sort of has. Daniel is mainly a last maker, that's what his title is nowadays. The making is what he does every evening (and night) and weekend in his apartment. They have one apprentice, but don't think he does much on customers' shoes yet. Then also a second apprentice maker on weekends but he's quite fresh and definitely doesn't make any customer shoes. Tony only does design and some last making, Dean only take some measurements at trunk shows, but not more. Closing is done in house by the same women who does the RTW and MTO shoes.

Making is except Daniel's done by one of the better British freelancers, one guy in France who also has a very good reputation, and a little bit by an Estonian maker.

Yeah Shoji's making is exceptional. Not the biggest fan of his own lasts, but both his wife's closing and his making is super.
post #3155 of 3165
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

When Dean measured me, he traced side profile of my feet but didn't use the foam box.  Is the way he measures specific to himself or is the house' measuring process evolving?

I believe it is due to Daniel's instigation (and curiosity) that over the last few years, G&G (the firm) has changed their ways in taking measurements and conducting trials of bespoke work.

When Tony measured me some 10 years ago (in his Edward Green days), it was probably not different from the way Cleverley (for whom Tony had worked previously) and other bespoke firms conduct their measurement sessions:

Length of the actual foot with the measuring stick
Outline, usually sitting down with weight-off (but some might prefer standing)
Measurements with a tape around joint, (mid) instep, back instep and (short) heel.

That's it! The whole procedure takes some 10 minutes or so. Ink prints, foam boxes, profile drawings are not traditionally used in English shoemaking.

Some lastmakers will cover the measurement sheet with elaborate squiggles, indicating the peculiarities of a certain foot. Terry Moore is one of them, so is Anthony Delos (judging by some photographs I have seen). Ultimately it doesn't matter how you reach that goal of a well-fitting last, as long as you reach it. If Daniel's quite elaborate ways result in a better fit (first time round) and save on adjustments or even remakes, so much the better. Even if it were a bit of overkill and hocus pocus: no harm done and the customer certainly will feel a million dollars worth.

But it speaks for G&G (the firm) that they do allow an input into the business' practices (even from someone relatively short in the trade) and are willing to try things out, and, if they are convinced, change their practices.

I cannot think of many firms (in whatever line of business they might be) who take suggestion serious instead of wrapping themselves into their presumed cloak of excellence, saying "What do you know? We've been making it like this for xxx years!"
post #3156 of 3165

I think the newer methods of measuring/fitting is for the better, at least at the minimum, theatrically better for their customers.  G&G also adopted fitting shoes as well, which helped me quite a bit in determining proximate fits of my last.

 

In terms of measuring, the French maker I've used did foot traces and measurements twice on the same piece of paper; once standing up and once sitting down.  In addition, they also scribbled the proximate location of the bones on feet onto the outline, locations of different veins popping out on the skin surface, and other peculiarities of feet.  And I think at least from the videos I've seen, fitting shoes is the norm when the French train their shoemakers.

 

On the other hand, downside of fitting shoes is that they usually lack structure (puffs, linings, etc) and isn't worn long enough.  Fukuda, at least I've read, sends out fitting shoes to customers to wear few weeks before trial fitting sessions, so customer could provide better feedbacks.  Or Meccariello, though not exactly bespoke, does offer fitting/trial shoes constructed as a regular GY welted pair for their customers.

 

If anything, G&G address the downside of fitting shoes by constructing them, similar to Meccariello, at their factory at RTW standards sans finishing and sent out a few weeks prior to meeting for customers to wear.  It could then be marked and cut up at trial fitting for maybe the optimal result.  This, however, might just improve their current process from, say, 97% to 98% perfection and not worth the cost compare to their current process.

post #3157 of 3165
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post


Well they sort of don't have an in house maker nowadays either, or sort of has. Daniel is mainly a last maker, that's what his title is nowadays. The making is what he does every evening (and night) and weekend in his apartment. They have one apprentice, but don't think he does much on customers' shoes yet. Then also a second apprentice maker on weekends but he's quite fresh and definitely doesn't make any customer shoes. Tony only does design and some last making, Dean only take some measurements at trunk shows, but not more. Closing is done in house by the same women who does the RTW and MTO shoes.

Making is except Daniel's done by one of the better British freelancers, one guy in France who also has a very good reputation, and a little bit by an Estonian maker.

Yeah Shoji's making is exceptional. Not the biggest fan of his own lasts, but both his wife's closing and his making is super.

 

Thanks for the info, that's very interesting to know.

 

Maybe its safe to assume all pairs shown in Daniel's personal instagram is done by himself?

 

Yes, Shoji's lasts shows some character, at the other end of spectrum compare to Hidetake Fukaya, which could be polarizing.  On the other hand, there are less polarizing lasts like those from Fosters or Guild of Crafts.

post #3158 of 3165
I remember that Shoji Kawaguchi shoe from my last visit and thought it was the most elegant one there.
post #3159 of 3165
...while we're rooting for him, I might as well add that I consider Shoji the most talented shoemaker in Japan, though judging from photos alone. His are not the aggressive, hyperbolised or loud shoes, but Marquess makes lasts and finishing bar none. You don't have to shout to be heard, you know.
post #3160 of 3165
Quote:
Originally Posted by culverwood View Post

I remember that Shoji Kawaguchi shoe from my last visit and thought it was the most elegant one there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VRaivio View Post

His are not the aggressive, hyperbolised or loud shoes, but Marquess makes lasts and finishing bar none.

Don't forget, Shoji would have been the (bottom) maker for these shoes. A "maker" is supplied with a last and a finished upper: his task is to attach the uppers to the sole and finish the sole (but not the uppers, that is done once the shoes are back with the firm).

So, all the credit for the looks and aesthetic of the shoe (which you can see in the photograph) is due to G&G. All the credit for the neat execution of the bottom work (which you can only see at close inspection) like tidy stitching, tightly cut welts, neat waist and immaculate finish of the sole is due to Shoji.
post #3161 of 3165
I didn't mean judging by that G&G pair, I meant all the finished pairs made by Marquess, Shoji's company.

On another note, how is your order wearing so far, bengal?
post #3162 of 3165
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post


I believe it is due to Daniel's instigation (and curiosity) that over the last few years, G&G (the firm) has changed their ways in taking measurements and conducting trials of bespoke work.

When Tony measured me some 10 years ago (in his Edward Green days), it was probably not different from the way Cleverley (for whom Tony had worked previously) and other bespoke firms conduct their measurement sessions:

Length of the actual foot with the measuring stick
Outline, usually sitting down with weight-off (but some might prefer standing)
Measurements with a tape around joint, (mid) instep, back instep and (short) heel.

That's it! The whole procedure takes some 10 minutes or so. Ink prints, foam boxes, profile drawings are not traditionally used in English shoemaking.

Some lastmakers will cover the measurement sheet with elaborate squiggles, indicating the peculiarities of a certain foot. Terry Moore is one of them, so is Anthony Delos (judging by some photographs I have seen). Ultimately it doesn't matter how you reach that goal of a well-fitting last, as long as you reach it. If Daniel's quite elaborate ways result in a better fit (first time round) and save on adjustments or even remakes, so much the better. Even if it were a bit of overkill and hocus pocus: no harm done and the customer certainly will feel a million dollars worth.

But it speaks for G&G (the firm) that they do allow an input into the business' practices (even from someone relatively short in the trade) and are willing to try things out, and, if they are convinced, change their practices.

I cannot think of many firms (in whatever line of business they might be) who take suggestion serious instead of wrapping themselves into their presumed cloak of excellence, saying "What do you know? We've been making it like this for xxx years!"

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post
 

I think the newer methods of measuring/fitting is for the better, at least at the minimum, theatrically better for their customers.  G&G also adopted fitting shoes as well, which helped me quite a bit in determining proximate fits of my last.

 

In terms of measuring, the French maker I've used did foot traces and measurements twice on the same piece of paper; once standing up and once sitting down.  In addition, they also scribbled the proximate location of the bones on feet onto the outline, locations of different veins popping out on the skin surface, and other peculiarities of feet.  And I think at least from the videos I've seen, fitting shoes is the norm when the French train their shoemakers.

 

On the other hand, downside of fitting shoes is that they usually lack structure (puffs, linings, etc) and isn't worn long enough.  Fukuda, at least I've read, sends out fitting shoes to customers to wear few weeks before trial fitting sessions, so customer could provide better feedbacks.  Or Meccariello, though not exactly bespoke, does offer fitting/trial shoes constructed as a regular GY welted pair for their customers.

 

If anything, G&G address the downside of fitting shoes by constructing them, similar to Meccariello, at their factory at RTW standards sans finishing and sent out a few weeks prior to meeting for customers to wear.  It could then be marked and cut up at trial fitting for maybe the optimal result.  This, however, might just improve their current process from, say, 97% to 98% perfection and not worth the cost compare to their current process.

 

I agree that it shows what kind of company G&G is who lets a newcomer like Daniel get that influence that he has on the bespoke process, definitely. And like both of you are into, he is more towards the French school of measuring, even if it differs a lot there as well. I've had bespoke shoes done both by makers who does it the traditional British way with very few measurements and no test shoes, and makers who do it with a lot of different measurements and "tools" and use fitting shoes, and my experience has been that they end up quite the same (okay first pair fit, very good pair fit). I think that how you measure and how you do the process to a point is down to what fits the individual/brand best, that what really matters is the knowledge and feeling the last maker has for turning the measurements into lasts. But agree that a properly built test shoe probably is the single most important part a maker can do to achieve a good fit already with the first pair, more important than taking a lot of measurements, if one look at it in a general way.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post
 

 

Thanks for the info, that's very interesting to know.

 

Maybe its safe to assume all pairs shown in Daniel's personal instagram is done by himself?

 

Yes, Shoji's lasts shows some character, at the other end of spectrum compare to Hidetake Fukaya, which could be polarizing.  On the other hand, there are less polarizing lasts like those from Fosters or Guild of Crafts.

 

 

Yes the pics on his Instagram is mostly from Daniel's own making in the home. 

post #3163 of 3165
Doesn't the leather itself have some play on how a shoe will fit? For example variations on the density of the hide in different areas may bend and flex differently on the same last. Also the shoe patterns themselves where there are stitching and such. Those things certainly have an influence, no? @DWFII
post #3164 of 3165
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Doesn't the leather itself have some play on how a shoe will fit? For example variations on the density of the hide in different areas may bend and flex differently on the same last. Also the shoe patterns themselves where there are stitching and such. Those things certainly have an influence, no? @DWFII

Yes, leathers do have an effect...the literature suggests that when using thicker leathers the last ought to be fit slightly looser. To understand why, you have to visualize the difference in the way a thicker leather will crease as opposed to a thinner. Heavier creases will put more pressure on the foot.

Seams can make a difference but probably only minimally unless such seams are located over critical joints or bones. And I pay particular attention to the way lining seams are made. For instance, if the raw edge is towards the back of the shoe it will tend to peel open when the foot enters the shoe. If the edge is toward the toe it will always tend to flattens.

That said, I have always believed that...within reason...more data is always better. But as someone in this discussion said...it's really more down to how you use it. And that comes down to your understanding of the last--a last is not an anatomical model of the foot cum toe margin.

And having said that, it is my contention that if a bespoke maker understands the foot even minimally and understands the way lasts and shoes interact with the foot...and respects the foot...a better fit will always be obtained than can be had with RTW footwear. Some adjustments may need to be made but nine times out of ten they are the result of gait variations, nerve sensitivity or the like--things that the maker cannot anticipate without being in the skin of the customer.

And sometimes that very good fit will surprise the customer simply because they have never been truly fit before.
post #3165 of 3165
Quote:
Originally Posted by VRaivio View Post

On another note, how is your order wearing so far, bengal?

I can take some pictures (on the foot) over the weekend, to show how the shoes look worn-in some three or four months later.
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