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The Ultimate "HARDCORE" Shoe Porn Thread (Bespoke only) - Page 149

post #2221 of 2460
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

ok. Here's a specific question. I have noticed that some makers stitch one side of the tongue to the inside of the facings and some don't. I assume this is purely a superficial difference and just a matter of preference and has no technical implications either way. Is that right?

Well, it is a good solution to a tricky problem that originates in how you design and esp. cut your patterns. Whenever I can, I make the tongue part of the vamp. This is not cost effective but because the tongue is cut from the same leather and in the same alignment as the vamp, I have never experienced the skewing of the tongue during wear that the stitching is meant to correct. Knock on wood.

I generally block the vamp and tongue at the same time and I'm sure that has some influence too.

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Edited by DWFII - 2/12/14 at 7:50am
post #2222 of 2460
Great explanations, thank you.
post #2223 of 2460
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


The tab I'm referring to is that little half circle of leather that is sometimes stuck in-between the vamp and the bottom of the facings. There was a discussion about this somewhere here recently. I can't find it even though I participated in it. shog[1].gif

Here it is: http://www.styleforum.net/t/297037/sole-welting/735#post_6900215

post #2224 of 2460
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Well, it is a good solution to a tricky problem that originates in how you design and esp. cut your patterns. Whenever I can, I make the tongue part of the vamp. This is not cost effective but because the tongue is cut from the same leather and in the same alignment as the vamp, I have never experienced the skewing of the tongue during wear that the stitching is meant to correct. Knock on wood.

I generally block the vamp and tongue at the same time and I'm sure that has some influence too.

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Thanks, again DW. I guess this is always an issue with Oxfords (closed lace shoes). On the suede derbies I am wearing now, the tongue is part of the lake. But on wholecut plain toe derbies it is a separate piece, too. Right?

Here is another one. Can you generalize about how suede performs differently from the usual calf as a material for sewing? Is it harder to work with? Can it be stitched as well. Any other ways it is different to work with that I haven't thought to ask? I should think it isn't any different since the underlying structure is the same, but don't know.
post #2225 of 2460
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

Thanks, again DW. I guess this is always an issue with Oxfords (closed lace shoes). On the suede derbies I am wearing now, the tongue is part of the lake. But on wholecut plain toe derbies it is a separate piece, too. Right?

Here is another one. Can you generalize about how suede performs differently from the usual calf as a material for sewing? Is it harder to work with? Can it be stitched as well. Any other ways it is different to work with that I haven't thought to ask? I should think it isn't any different since the underlying structure is the same, but don't know.

If I'm picturing the same shoe, it would almost have to be, wouldn't it?

The potential is there to always be an issue although I have yet to run across it in the shoes I make ...again knock on wood. Some oxfords don't benefit from a line of stitching "parallel" to the facings, so any tongue holding stitch is somewhat incongruous.

A customer of mine brought in a pair of Italian Blake-Rapids that had a unique solution--a loop of heavy thread positioned in the middle of the tongue. The laces went under the loop from both sides and that kept the tongue from skewing.

Good suede is calf...full grain calf with the fleshside exposed. It doesn't perform any differently than full grain calf, grainside out. It's just harder to keep clean. i always use a shrink wrap cover before inseaming.
post #2226 of 2460
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Good suede is calf...full grain calf with the fleshside exposed. It doesn't perform any differently than full grain calf, grainside out. It's just harder to keep clean. i always use a shrink wrap cover before inseaming.

Wouldn't that be roughout, not suede? Suede is full grain leather that is split, with the bottom half sanded, no? Admittedly, it's an arbitrary distinction.

post #2227 of 2460
Quote:
Originally Posted by anrobit View Post

Wouldn't that be roughout, not suede? Suede is full grain leather that is split, with the bottom half sanded, no? Admittedly, it's an arbitrary distinction.

Not the way I learned it. Just backwards, in fact. Shoes made from splits are inferior grade and often called "rough out."

Splits are usually taken well down in the corium. Sometimes a full grain layer and a split can be obtained from a hide.

IIRC, A.A. Crack offers suede that is full grain. I can't remember off the top pf my head but Crack's source distinguishes between full grain suede and splits as well....and they're the one producing it.
post #2228 of 2460
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Not the way I learned it. Just backwards, in fact. Shoes made from splits are inferior grade and often called "rough out."

Splits are usually taken well down in the corium. Sometimes a full grain layer and a split can be obtained from a hide.

IIRC, A.A. Crack offers suede that is full grain. I can't remember off the top pf my head but Crack's source distinguishes between full grain suede and splits as well....and they're the one producing it.

The note on roughout is the opposite of everything I've heard, and also doesn't make much sense. Roughout is named so because you're taking leather and placing it with the rough (flesh) side out. Little finishing is done on the flesh side for roughouts.

 

I'll have to look more into suede.

post #2229 of 2460
Quote:
Originally Posted by anrobit View Post

The note on roughout is the opposite of everything I've heard, and also doesn't make much sense. Roughout is named so because you're taking leather and placing it with the rough (flesh) side out. Little finishing is done on the flesh side for roughouts.

I'll have to look more into suede.

[shrug]

It might be a cultural thing. But truth to tell, I don't think any shoemaker refers to suede or suede-like leathers as "rough-out." I think that's kind of a merchandizing term. And I will admit that there's often confusion because sometimes a distinction is drawn between reverse-calf suede and suede.

But a split is a split and that's what most manufacturers, esp. low end, are referring to when they talk about suede.

Looking more closely at A.A. Crack, they offer a reverse suede and a suede. But they describe their suede as "more flexible and soft than other full grain leathers."

And the source that I mentioned earlier--Charles F. Stead, who produces only "suedes" and nu-bucs and who may be one of, if not the, premier source in all the world--offers a Janus calf described as "A production of selected, young calf skins with a luxurious silky suede side and a natural full-grain, aniline reverse side. Primarily intended as a suede, the grain side should be used as trim. The handle of Janus is a touch firmer than soft." I have one of their swatch cards and almost without exception the leathers that most people would describe as "suede" have a full grain" on the backside of the swatch.

In my experience, esp among bespoke shoemakers, "suede" always refers to full grain reverse...if only out of desperate optimism.

I, for one, would not ever use a split for shoes. I do not think I am alone in that determination. All the strength that is inherent in the grain has gone missing.

BTW, just because I know this thread likes pictures, here is a pair of full wellingtons made of suede...as I define it:



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post #2230 of 2460
Suede wellies are dangerous...
post #2231 of 2460
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Suede wellies are dangerous...

fing02[1].gif
post #2232 of 2460
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkDerm View Post


these are great. may we see the soles and insides? nice croc used also! icon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif

great last. how's the fit? pricing?


@ ThinkDerm - pictures for you ;)

 

Rendenbach soles 6 mm, pre-cut in the tannery (not from split bends)

 

 

 

Cognac and white (deep inside, almost not seen) leather was used for lining

 

 

The tongue is sewn into the lining at the inner side of a foot

post #2233 of 2460
Quote:
Originally Posted by damiance View Post


The tongue is sewn into the lining at the inner side of a foot


Never seen this before, what purpose does this serve? doesn't it make it less flexible while trying to put them on and off?

Awesome shoes btw.
post #2234 of 2460
My G&G bespoke sew in part of the tongue too. I believe it helps the tongue stay in place when you put on your shoes. I noticed once when some of the stitches ripped off, the tongue got in the way of putting on shoes and it was a little annoying. I only noticed it because the stitches on other shoe held and were easier to put on.
post #2235 of 2460

you are right - this help the tongue to stay in place. Such solution is especially convinient in oxford shoes (can not be used in derby)

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