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Guns? (do you carry?) revived - Page 12

post #166 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnapril
I heard M-16s were poorly designed, initially. Weren't they prone to jamming?
Yeah, poor choice of materials in the barrel lining, I think. Those issues were all addressed years ago, though.
post #167 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by dah328
Yeah, poor choice of materials in the barrel lining, I think. Those issues were all addressed years ago, though.

The jamming wasn't because of the jungle, then? It happened wherever you tried to use them?
post #168 of 200
The early M-16 was very maintenance intensive and was prone to jamming and other malfunctions unless it was properly cleaned and lubricated daily. The lack of proper maintenance is what caused the reliability issues when the rifle was first deployed in Vietnam conflict.


The deployment of M-16 in 5.56 NATO caliber was brought about by several things amongst them the change from "Every man a marksman" doctrine to "spray and pray" that you hit something.

Currently you can see a reverse of that doctrine since current standard issue M16A4 does not have the full automatic fire option, just single and 3-round burst.
post #169 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by dah328
I've read that in many places by authors that included infantry officers who would presumably know. That the 5.56mm round was introduced to enable soldiers to carry more rounds is not mutually exclusive with its design to wound, or as globe puts it, kill slowly. The random hits theory is definitely not true for the infantry soldier armed with a semi-auto rifle. With those rifles' rates of fire, accuracy is more important than volume as shown by the emphasis of the army and especially the marines on individual marksmanship.

I have to disagree, as "killing slowly" is more of a detriment than advantage to infantry. Furthermore, while the random hits theory is not as true for semi-auto fire, it is entirely correct regarding the original M16s which had the fully auto option, I believe a civilian group was contracted for the studies.

Frankly, I do not understand the last sentence as it seems to contradict itself. While guestimating, the rate of fire of an M16 is over 700 rounds for minute. As such, a significant amount of lead can be placed into the air, negating the need for accuracy. And unfortunately no, the emphasis was not on marksmenship for the 18 year old soldiers sent to vietnam where the M16 was first used. Maybe now more so, but the advent of ACOGS, Eotechs, and Aimpoints greatly improves an soldier's accuracy.
post #170 of 200
I'm referring to the more recently-issued M16A2 and M16A4 which are not full auto.
post #171 of 200
I would guess that the purpose of the 5.56 M-16 was both for the purpose of putting out a larger volume of lead as well as injuring vs. instantly killing the enemy. An injured man requires medical attention as well as the assistance of his fellow solider. In essence, you're trying to tie up as much as the enemy's resources as possible and to divert their attention away from the actual fighting.
post #172 of 200
Standard M16 or M4 are not weapons for "Marksmen" because they are not designed to engage target at more than 300-400 yards. The reason for this is the ballistics and terminal performance of the 5.56 NATO cartridge. The 5.56 bullet wil be most effective when it undergoes hydroshock and fragments. This only happens realiably when it hits a human type target going faster than 2700 fps. The speed of the bullet is determined by the bullet weight, design and barrel length of the rifle (provided we are using 5.56 standard of gunpowder). If we take a standard military M193 55 grains bullet it will relaibly fragment no further than 130 yards. For 14.5 inch barreled M4 rifle the fragmentation threshold range is only 90 yards. Hits outside this range will produce a lot of wounded as oppose to dead enemies. The small 55 grain ball-type bullet is just not that efficient at causing death and severe trauma unless it fragments.
The army is handicapped by having to use ball-type ammunition. Law enforcement and civilians have access to superior jacketed soft point, jacketed hollow-point and other deformable bullet type ammunition which is more effective against humans or animals than plain ball.

There is new 5.56 cartridge (Mk 262, 77 grains) being adopted by the army and special forces right now which realibly fragements at only 2300fps. This extends the fragmentation treshold for M16 to 210 yards and M4 to 145 yards.
post #173 of 200
Good post Dmax. Do you know the status of the Mk 262, in light of the 6.8 round?
post #174 of 200
There's not going to be any widespread adaption of the 6.8 SPC or any 6.8 round as a replacement for the 5.56. The Mk262 round is addressing the shortcomings of the 5.56 in shorter barrels quite nicely. Most of the 6.8 SPC usage has been limited to the special forces teams which have more flexibility in terms of what they can or cannot use.
post #175 of 200
1. lets clarify what is meant by "kill" "wound" and "kill slowly" - here is what happens when you are shot with an m-16: you stop fighting and die. here is what happens when you are shot with an AK-47 (30 cal round): you stop fighting and die. the difference is, if you get shot with an AK-47, you die pretty quickly and relativly quitly. if you are hit with a 5.56 round, you die pretty noisily, disrupting your friends and causing a medic or two to try to save you. my understanding was that one of the main reasons the 5.56 round was developed was the idea that you could take 3 people off the battle field with one hit - the target and 2 people who were helping him. honestly, the situation is such that the 5.56 is used by countries that care about their wounded, and the 7.62 is used by people who care less about their wounded, so it is not as effective an idea as it may have been.

2. you have to look at what came before - the M-1 Garand fired a clip of 8 rounds, each about 2 or 3 times as heavy as a 5.56 round. each soldier would carry maybe 80 rounds or so. the range was huge, maybe 3 times the effective range for the M-16, and the killing power was huge (these are not AK-47 rounds, they are more like the rounds used by a platoon strength chain fed machine gun). these were almost impossible to shoot while running, but were fantastic for defence. my father used one when he was in the army, and when we discussed how they were used, the procedures were totally different from how one uses a 5.56 rifle.

3. my understanding is (this is what I was tought, and tought others) that after wwii and korea, the US army wanted a weapon that was less robust than the M-1, with the idea that individual soldiers usually only fired a few dozen rounds in combat, and it was cheaper to make a gun that would only handle a few hundred rounds and that could be replaced as needed; was very light (having carried a Galil rifle, with follows the AK-47 design, very robust, but uses 5.56 ammo, I can tell you the m-16 feels like a feather);and had light ammo to allow a soldier to carry 250-400 rounds of ammo; and would be less lethal - with the idea that you could create havoc and use up resources by wounding more people rather than killing them outright. having witnesses a large number of people killed by a 7.62 maching gun round, I can say that they don't make much fuss - they just die.
post #176 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnapril
The jamming wasn't because of the jungle, then? It happened wherever you tried to use them?


another thing - the M-16 has little tiny gas tubes, and the pieces are made out of pretty light metal. a new one is great, espectially if you clean it well. if you have an old one, or you get it a little dirty, you will have a lot of jams.

the gas tube of an AK-47 or a galil are about 5 times the diameter of an M-16. you pay for it in weight, but you can take an AK-47 into muddy water and it will fire.
post #177 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mute

Look. I don't want guns in the hands of criminals anymore than you do. But the fact is guns exist and we can't get the genie back into the bottle. Limiting private citizen's access to firearms won't deter the criminal. It'll will just create easier victims. England and Australia hasn't had much success with their gun ban. In the U.K., they seemed to have spurred the growth of a firearms black market. I doubt it will be any different in the U.S. if we follow their path.

Mute, I have never advocated limiting the access of weapons by law. I just don't think that most people need firearms, and certainly don't need serious firepower. I believe that the less guns people own, the less accidents and the less guns will be stolen.

let me offer this - my mother uses huge amounts of pain medicine, she has a cronic health issue and pain managment is a big part of her life. I don't think she shouldn't have the medicine she needs. I don't think that people should have powerful over the counter drugs limited to them. if a friend of mine told me that he recreationally used serious prescription pain medicine it would effect the level of respect and effection that I had for him.

same thing with guns.
post #178 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by SartorialSheepdog
Good post Dmax. Do you know the status of the Mk 262, in light of the 6.8 round?

I believe 6.8SPC and 6.5 Grendel are in still the testing phase by USSOCOM as limited scale issue for the Special Operations community. I think 5.56 NATO still has many years of life in it, especially with Fabrique Nationale being awarded the SCAR contract not too long ago. The SCAR-L (SOF Combat Assault Rifle-Light) is chambered in 5.56 NATO. The SCAR-H is chambered in 7.62x51mm.

I disagree somewhat with Globe's statement: "the situation is such that the 5.56 is used by countries that care about their wounded, and the 7.62 is used by people who care less about their wounded, so it is not as effective an idea as it may have been."

The countries using 7.62x39mm are only using it because the AKM platform is acessible to them cheaply. Third world countries and various "freedom fighters' around the world would use anything they could get their hands on. AKM platform is the most popular followed by the FAL platform and AR15/M16.
The former USSR who developed 7.62x39mm cartridge moved away from it and developed their own answer to 5.56 NATO known as the 5.45mm, which first appeared in AK-74.
post #179 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter
Mute, I have never advocated limiting the access of weapons by law. I just don't think that most people need firearms, and certainly don't need serious firepower. I believe that the less guns people own, the less accidents and the less guns will be stolen.

let me offer this - my mother uses huge amounts of pain medicine, she has a cronic health issue and pain managment is a big part of her life. I don't think she shouldn't have the medicine she needs. I don't think that people should have powerful over the counter drugs limited to them. if a friend of mine told me that he recreationally used serious prescription pain medicine it would effect the level of respect and effection that I had for him.

same thing with guns.

As long as you don't advocate doing so by law I don't have any problems. Everyone has a right to their ideas on a particular matter. I respect the experience you have with firearms and I personally wish every firearm owner would take more responsibility both in their storage of guns and their training.

I might not necessarily agree with all your points but you do have some points I agree with 100%.
post #180 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmax
I disagree somewhat with Globe's statement: "the situation is such that the 5.56 is used by countries that care about their wounded, and the 7.62 is used by people who care less about their wounded, so it is not as effective an idea as it may have been."

The countries using 7.62x39mm are only using it because the AKM platform is acessible to them cheaply. Third world countries and various "freedom fighters' around the world would use anything they could get their hands on. AKM platform is the most popular followed by the FAL platform and AR15/M16.
The former USSR who developed 7.62x39mm cartridge moved away from it and developed their own answer to 5.56 NATO known as the 5.45mm, which first appeared in AK-74.


so why disagree?
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