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Check out my new bag - Page 5

post #61 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntsman View Post
Money into the pockets of American workers is so much better than a little extra money in the pockets of a Mexican, isn't it? Those Mexicans are just too damned greedy, and obviously not nearly as good as an American.

Is the American Way free trade everywhere, or just when it works out better for us?

Saddleback takes pride in what they do, and they take care of their people by making sure they get paid a decent wage. Most US companies with overseas or South of the Border operations are there only for the labor differential, so making the facilities worthwhile comes at the price of maximizing that differential.

I like buying a product that someone took pride in designing and making. I like buying a product that was made by people who are paid more than the minimum at which work is available, so that they can lead better lives. As an American, I can usually afford that -- um, isn't that what being an American is about? Or is it about hording for ourselves, sorry, I forget.

I hope your car isn't "an import."

~H

Hmm...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntsman View Post
You know, you don't have to be a prick. I think that's the unofficial SF motto.

Or is that only applicable when other people go off on unnecessary rants?
post #62 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntsman View Post
Money into the pockets of American workers is so much better than a little extra money in the pockets of a Mexican, isn't it? Those Mexicans are just too damned greedy, and obviously not nearly as good as an American. Is the American Way free trade everywhere, or just when it works out better for us? Saddleback takes pride in what they do, and they take care of their people by making sure they get paid a decent wage. Most US companies with overseas or South of the Border operations are there only for the labor differential, so making the facilities worthwhile comes at the price of maximizing that differential. I like buying a product that someone took pride in designing and making. I like buying a product that was made by people who are paid more than the minimum at which work is available, so that they can lead better lives. As an American, I can usually afford that -- um, isn't that what being an American is about? Or is it about hording for ourselves, sorry, I forget. I hope your car isn't "an import." ~H
My intention was certainly not to imply that I believe Mexican workers to be greedy (though I suspect you were being facetious), or that they don't deserve a living wage (everyone does); and I sincerely hope I did not come off as some kind of racist jingoist. I think you and I are on the same page about wishing that the capitalist/labor relationship be a more humane and just one, and some of your comments seem to me to bespeak a critique of American economic imperialism which I share as well. My original post was, in part, actually trying to address the significant portion of people (many of whom, I'm sure, are on SF) who are currently participating in the 'heritage' 'I only buy made in the USA' consumerist zeitgeist, which to me often veers perniciously (if unintentionally) from a kind of economic nationalism to a culturalist racism. How many times have we seen items dismissed as crap solely because they were not made in the USA, or somewhere in Western Europe? As if Chinese, Indians, Thai, etc., were incapable of producing a quality item? To subscribe to that belief (which I don't think you do) is just plainly ignorant. My bag, at least, disproves this--it is an incredibly well made bag, and it was made in China. While I don't subscribe to the same consumerist ethos as many of these people, I do, when I can, buy local and or made in the USA because I feel like it does a little to help what is clearly an ailing economy, and reduces the needless waste that occurs when something I can obtain locally at a slightly higher markup is shipped from long distances. While I applaud Saddleback on their efforts to run a humane business practice, perhaps paying wages higher than the going rate in whatever region their production occurs in, I do also believe them to be lining their pockets with a fairly significant profit margin. (A post by Saddleback on a different thread mentions that one of their former producers were selling their bags on ebay at a significant markdown, which I can only take to mean that the markup Saddleback puts on the bags more than covers whatever additional costs they put into fair wages, etc.) I know this to be the nature of capitalism, and for that reason it is just a fundamental element of the production/consumption cycle over which I have little control. I don't begrudge Saddleback for making money (I assume that's at least in part why they started the business), but I can choose to put less of my money into someone else's pocket. And, in this instance, I just made a choice to buy a bag (of what fans of Saddleback say is of inferior quality, and on this they may well be correct), made in China, where workers need money as much as they do in Mexico. The factory in which my bag was made may indeed have worse conditions than those/that in Mexico where Saddlebacks are made, but I do not know this to be the case, so I will not presume it. My fallback position is not to assume that everything China does is terrible in every single way... I suppose what my post was really trying to boil down to, is that I think a lot of the people who are fans of the 'heritage,' or the 'artisanal,' believe Saddleback bags to fall into the various fantasies within which these categories circulate; i.e., workers who take pride in crafting items of lasting quality with a commitment to workmanship that has been lost over the last several decades as consumers become less concerned with quality than value, etc...(frankly, I think the densest concentration of 'artisanship' and 'heritage' are most likely to be found in the rural zones of the peripheries of the world, where things have to be made by hand and using the most antiquated methods, probably in places like China and India, which is the erasure zone of the US 'artisan' 'heritage' imaginary) I think through clever advertising and word of mouth, they've managed to imbue an item that is produced much more cheaply in Mexico that it could be in the US (this is not a comment about quality), with an overdetermined mystique that cloaks what is, at its base, a slightly more humane production scheme where the consumer still takes a big hit. But that's not Saddleback's fault, they're incredibly successful at getting people to pay $600+ for a bag that I suspect does not cost even close to that to produce. If one has that kind of money to spend on a bag, by all means I think they should. I know I would. That's the nature of capitalism, and being someone who like to own nice things, but I have opted in this instance to not partake in what I perceive to be the clever marketing sleight-of-hand that produces the illusion that (on my budget) $600 is worth it for a bag. Now if I had more money, and did want to support a local 'artisan' who made some sweet leather bags, I would buy a Walden Bag.
post #63 of 74
The one single reason that I have not purchased a Saddleback bag is because they charge prices as if they were made in America. I could from several other small high quality privately held companies that employ American's for the same price. Yes, I feel strongly that I support the people that in turn support my country through purchases and taxation and also alleviate my tax bourdon through their own employment and paying into the system. It’s a continuous circle of support through patriotism and pride in American made products. Is it nice that Saddleback helps Mexican workers, yes. It’s also nice that those workers have less interest in trespassing onto American soil for work due to their employment. However, there is no possibility that they are paying a Mexican worker what an American worker would make. The local economy would not dictate such an act and it would be financially careless and make for a flawed business model, even from a company that cares very much about the local economy. To turn around and charge the same price as bags made buy workers in America who do get paid more is insulting to a potential buyer like myself. If the entire company was based in Mexico, I would have less of a problem with their practices, as at least then they would not be outsourcing, they would be locally owned and operated and living in the community they care so much about. I still would have trouble with their prices. I get most of my leather goods custom made by hand as one off designs in the USA and Scotland, so I have an idea of relative pricing, materials, and practices. Saddleback’s pricing is out of line in my opinion given the materials and labor location. They have a niche market and they charging what the market will allow, it has nothing to do with material or workmanship. However, I really like their marketing (it’s slick, funny, and almost condescending, but not quite), their designs are nice, and they still have the passion of a young company. I have emailed them and asked them to explain their position on this matter and I look forward to hearing their response. I expect, just as their website states, they are charging a premium for the hardships they have had to endure in the past before business took off, just as a band makes millions after spending years living out of a car. Nothing wrong with that in a capitalistic society, but it doesn’t make the bag any better than one half the price. Bottom line for me: If someone saw that bag, they would think it’s beautiful and unique. If they asked where it’s made, they would understand manufacture in Mexico. However, when they asked the price, an explanation would be required to keep me from sounding like an idiot who just got swindled (and I would still sound like a naïve person who just got swindled). That makes it an overwhelming no-go for me. Business deals get lost over impressions of stupidity and naivety. Lower the pricing $200.00 and they are more realistically reflective of the market. Move operations to the USA and they could raise prices by 15% and get away with it. I said all that, to say all this. Cow/steer hide ranges widely, but prices for even the thickest most well marked hides have reasonable pricing for the raw product, oil tanning takes a day or so at most, vegetable tanning takes several weeks, hardware is inexpensive, and these bags are not finished by decoratively covering seams with small carefully placed leather finishing strips requiring detailed stitching. The fact is that you have a cow skin, oil tanned bag with an unfinished look. I love it, chrome / oil tanning is durable and very water resistant, but more practical than vegetable tanning IMO. But your materials are not what your paying most of that money for, its labor and if you just bought another bag made in the same country and the labor costs were significantly less, chances are, the biggest difference in the two bags is the price. Sure materials may differ slightly, but the law of diminishing returns always comes into play with leather goods. I have jackets of 3, 4, and 5.5oz steer hide and several different types of horsehide, chrome tanned, naked, veg tanned. I realize that I’m paying a premium for a sense of satisfaction in that extra 1oz in weight or a certain type of thread, or even a family secret in tanning processes, but to not recognize the huge law of diminishing returns would be idiocy. Be happy with your bag. I’m sure the leather is durable. At 9 pounds, deer, calf, bull, steer, horse, sueded leather will all be durable. Only time will tell if the stitching and thread materials are equal. However, I have a feeling that the bag will last far longer than you care to use it for. Will it resist an alligator attack? The leather probably will, not sure about the stitching, do you expect to be feeding your bag to an alligator? I buy jackets over engineered to the point of being ridiculous, but the most expensive is rarely the best in a society that is driven by smart advertising. Those of you who bought Saddleback should be happy with your bags too. They are both nice. Once the law of diminishing returns heavily comes into play, as it has here, it’s all about what makes you feel better. And in the end, that is all that matters really, after all, it’s your hard earned money. But to jump onto the "its cheap junk" bandwagon, is ridiculous, especially when you are dealing with simple materials and construction. BTW, I know my grammar and sentence structure suck in online posts, save your breath lol.
post #64 of 74
For what its worth, I did get an email back from Saddleback's president and although he didnt tell me anything I didnt already know, it is clear that he truly believes his product is the best for the price on the market. Whether this is true or not depends on the buyer I suppose. Either way, the company does have great customer service.

Sorry to derail the thread, just wanted to follow up on my last post.
post #65 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntsman View Post
What, so they just have copied a Saddleback in every substantial way, make it, doubtless, out of cheaper materials, and probably somewhere with a lower labor rate than Saddleback, and sell it at half the cost without putting any real effort into it (i.e., design).

I.

Am.

Not.

A.

Fan.

I think that is really poor, and I hope no one buys their bags ever.


~ Huntsman



I.
Am.
A.
Fan.

Sorry that is the way the economy works. When you put out a good product someone is most certainly going to reverse engineer it. And possibly make a better product. Possibly not.
post #66 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc1234 View Post
For what its worth, I did get an email back from Saddleback's president and although he didnt tell me anything I didnt already know, it is clear that he truly believes his product is the best for the price on the market. Whether this is true or not depends on the buyer I suppose. Either way, the company does have great customer service.

Sorry to derail the thread, just wanted to follow up on my last post.

This issue always seems to come up. Other saddleback threads show their responses to be pretty evasive or empty; I hope they actually address some of the labor concerns that're being discussed here.
post #67 of 74
holy shit this thread delivers.
post #68 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by acl1 View Post
This issue always seems to come up. Other saddleback threads show their responses to be pretty evasive or empty; I hope they actually address some of the labor concerns that're being discussed here.

Its clear that they are charging a premium simply as a return on their supposed investment, similar to how brand name drugs are far more expensive than generic. Id love to see their bag compared side by side with a no-name bag, like the one in this thread. Id be interested to see the results.
post #69 of 74
Nice bag!
post #70 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by harvey_birdman View Post
Nice bag, but Dentyne Ice contains aspartame, so you're probably going to get mouth cancer and turn out like Roger Ebert.

honestly, what gum (besides the 'all natural' brands) doesn't have aspartame nowadays?

I chew Dentyne now because the capsules are nice- sticks melt in your pocket when it's too hot/break apart when it's too cold
post #71 of 74
Sticks melting in your pocket, Saddleback from Mexico, dalej has a 9lb bag, this thread is blowing my mind right now. FWIW, my girl just took a biz class flight from Fukuoka to Seoul yesterday, a quick jaunt, but had 2 check-ins (big Rimowa on wheels and a roll of selvedge of denim for me) and then she carried on: a Macbook in a carry bag, a purse, and this huge tote that weighed over 20 lbs, filled with all kinds of junk, including fresh vegetables, liquids, etc. Real flying is not dead.
post #72 of 74
hm wow
post #73 of 74
Ok, so I talked to Dave at Saddleback and understood his choice to support Mexico and other charities. Id still like to buy made in the USA, but nothing really came close to Saddleback in that style other than walden which was still more refined, not what I wanted. I still wasnt sold on the bag, but realized I had to see one in person. Anyway after seeing the bag in person and seeing the detailed photos in this thread, the biggest difference between this bag and Saddleback is going to be the stitching and strength of the seams. The bag you have is made to carry things like books and normal stuff. The Saddleback bags are made to carry bags of concrete and iron weights. The stitching is borderline overkill and the attachment points are heavily secured.

The other big difference is that saddleback uses a lining (in my case pigskin).

All in all, for normal use, this bag should be just fine. Most people would be physically injured by the amount of weight the Saddleback bag could hold. So while this bag may or may not be a copy (who knows who first used the style), it seems just fine for daily use.
post #74 of 74
I think the OP's bag does have a liner, it is just similar in color to the outer hide. I have the same bag, and the entire bag (with the exception of the sides, which I believe is true of Saddleback's briefcase construction as well, but correct me if I'm mistaken on this) is lined in a soft, supple suede. On my bag, the stitching is made with a very thick thread, and is well executed and even. The rivets on mine, while nice, could stand to be heavier duty. There are a combination of hammered rivets, and Chicago screws (as on the handle, and the main reinforced D-rings on the side for messenger bag mode). On the flip side, I've seen Saddleback owners complain about the hollowed rivets (which is apparently of the same grade used in the construction of airplanes--which I find cool) used in their bags too though--but to be honest, it doesn't really seem like the rivets would fail on either bag under normal use (at a certain capacity [I'm guessing far below that which would break the rivets] it is just not a good idea to carry a heavy leather bag like these). Knowing the kinds of loads that I'll be carrying (laptop, books, papers, etc.), I have no concerns about the hardware ever failing on my bag. The buckles on mine are not solid brass, but some kind of nickel plated metal, and are very heavy (maybe too heavy, I wish they used a bit of a less hefty buckle). Anyways, I just wanted to clarify that the bag in the OP does in fact have a lining, it is not just a single layer of leather. Make of it what you will...
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