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Spanking - Page 8

post #106 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark from Plano View Post
Don't know if you've read my posts, but I acknowledge that that's certainly an option. In my case I was spanked as a child. Usually about once every two weeks whether I needed it or not (I was an honor student and a 'good kid' if that tells you anything). In a few cases the spankings I got actually crossed the line, IMO (left welts and bruises, etc.).

My wife was raised in a home without spanking and felt strongly about not spanking. I embraced it mainly because I didn't trust myself not to lose control in moments of anger and take it beyond where it should have gone (a rare moment of introspection).

Again, I'm not dogmatic about it. My only point is that there is no one right way to do it. There are however lots of wrong ways to do it and the wrong ways involve both spanking and not spanking.

Mark, that line of thinking requires a lot of introspection and courage. Respect.
post #107 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark from Plano View Post
Well it's really difficult to tell what your point is. It seems that your underlying assumption is that parenting techniques for 4 year olds will be required when they are 16. This is faulty. If you've disciplined them properly as 4 year olds (whether by spanking or by other means) then they won't need spanking at 16. If you beat the shit out of them when they are 4 and make them angry little shits then, yes, you won't be able to control them at 16.

That is precisely my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark from Plano View Post
But as Pio already has pointed out, lots of kids get spanked and don't turn out to be criminals. It's not the deciding factor you want to claim it is.

And my point is that there are lots of kids that don't get spanked and turn out to be productive and effective members of the community.
post #108 of 330
Our upbringings are very personal, so people are expected to rationalize their own upbringings as 'correct.' How about some science?

Here is something from Nemours, a respected pediatric source (http://kidshealth.org/parent/emotion...ipline.html#):

Quote:
It's important to not spank, hit, or slap a child of any age. Babies and toddlers are especially unlikely to be able to make any connection between their behavior and physical punishment. They will only feel the pain of the hit.


And the American Academy of Pediatrics (http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...01/4/723.pdf):

Quote:
Corporal punishment involves the application of some form of physical pain in response to undesirable behavior. Corporal punishment ranges from slapping the hand of a child about to touch a hot stove to identifiable child abuse, such as beatings, scaldings, and burnings. Because of this range in the form and severity of punishment, its use as a discipline strategy is controversial. Although significant concerns have been raised about the negative effects of physical punishment and its potential escalation into abuse, a form of physical punishment"”spanking"”remains one of the strategies used most commonly to reduce undesired behaviors, with .90% of American families reporting having used spanking as a means of discipline at some time.{15} Spanking, as discussed here, refers to striking a child with an open hand on the buttocks or extremities with the intention of modifying behavior without causing physical injury. Other forms of physical punishment, such as striking a child with an object, striking a child on parts of the body other than the buttocks or extremities, striking a child with such intensity that marks lasting more than a few minutes occur, pulling a child's hair, jerking a child by the arm, shaking a child, and physical punishment delivered in anger with intent to cause pain, are unacceptable and may be dangerous to the health and well-being of the child. These types of physical punishment should never be used.

Despite its common acceptance, and even advocacy for its use,{16} spanking is a less effective strategy than time-out or removal of privileges for reducing undesired behavior in children. Although spanking may immediately reduce or stop an undesired behavior, its effectiveness decreases with subsequent use. The only way to maintain the initial effect of spanking is to systematically increase the intensity with which it is delivered, which can quickly escalate into abuse. Thus, at best, spanking is only effective when used in selective infrequent situations.

The following consequences of spanking lessen its desirability as a strategy to eliminate undesired behavior.

"¢ Spanking children <18 months of age increases the chance of physical injury, and the child is unlikely to understand the connection between the behavior and the punishment.
"¢ Although spanking may result in a reaction of shock by the child and cessation of the undesired behavior, repeated spanking may cause agitated, aggressive behavior in the child that may lead to physical altercation between parent and child.
"¢ Spanking models aggressive behavior as a solution to conflict and has been associated with increased aggression in preschool and school children.{17}
"¢ Spanking and threats of spanking lead to altered parent-child relationships, making discipline substantially more difficult when physical punishment is no longer an option, such as with adolescents.
"¢ Spanking is no more effective as a long-term strategy than other approaches,{18} and reliance on spanking as a discipline approach makes other discipline strategies less effective to use.{19} Timeout and positive reinforcement of other behaviors are more difficult to implement and take longer to become effective when spanking has previously been a primary method of discipline.
"¢ A pattern of spanking may be sustained or increased. Because spanking may provide the parent some relief from anger, the likelihood that the parent will spank the child in the future is increased.{20}

Parents who spank their children are more likely to use other unacceptable forms of corporal punishment.{21} The more children are spanked, the more anger they report as adults, the more likely they are to spank their own children, the more likely they are to approve of hitting a spouse, and the more marital conflict they experience as adults.{20} Spanking has been associated with higher rates of physical aggression, more substance abuse, and increased risk of crime and violence{22} when used with older children and adolescents.

REFERENCES

15. Baumrind D. The development of instrumental competence through
socialization. Minn Symposium Child Psychol. 1973;3-46
16. Larzelere RE. A review of the outcomes of parental use of nonabusive
or customary physical punishment. Pediatrics. 1996:824-828
17. Eron LD. Research and public policy. Pediatrics. 1996;98:821-823
18. Roberts MW, Powers SW. Adjusting chair time-out enforcement procedures
for oppositional children. Behav Ther. 1990;21:257-271
19. Wilson DR, Lyman RD. Time-out in the treatment of childhood behavior
problems: implementation and research issues. Child Family Behav
Ther. 1982;4:5-20
20. Straus MA. Spanking and the making of a violent society. Pediatrics.
1996;98:837-842
21. Graziano AM, Hamblen JL, Plante WA. Subabusive violence in child
rearing in middle-class American families. Pediatrics. 1996;98:845-848
22. Cohen P. How can generative theories of the effects of punishment be
tested? Pediatrics. 1996;98:834-836

I left the references in because people always question that kind of shit. This is peer-reviewed shit, motherfucker
post #109 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark from Plano View Post
...I didn't trust myself not to lose control in moments of anger and take it beyond where it should have gone...

The RubeBabes all received at one time or another a swat on the backside. I recall having the same fear as Mark every single time.
post #110 of 330
nvm
post #111 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedalus View Post
Our upbringings are very personal, so people are expected to rationalize their own upbringings as 'correct.' How about some science?




I left the references in because people always question that kind of shit. This is peer-reviewed shit, motherfucker

Nicely put.
post #112 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedalus View Post
Our upbringings are very personal, so people are expected to rationalize their own upbringings as 'correct.' How about some science?

Here is something from Nemours, a respected pediatric source [..]

And the American Academy of Pediatrics

I left the references in because people always question that kind of shit. This is peer-reviewed shit, motherfucker

Thanks! That saved me time!
post #113 of 330
Although for the record, I am in favor of Mark's pragmatic approach, even though the literature favors no spanking. I just haven't encountered a situation yet with my son that I believe has warranted a spanking, but then he is only 3.
post #114 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedalus View Post
Our upbringings are very personal, so people are expected to rationalize their own upbringings as 'correct.' How about some science?

Here is something from Nemours, a respected pediatric source (http://kidshealth.org/parent/emotion...ipline.html#):




And the American Academy of Pediatrics (http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...01/4/723.pdf):



I left the references in because people always question that kind of shit. This is peer-reviewed shit, motherfucker

There is still a crap ton I could pick apart there. However, outside of having to deal with misbehaved children, I really have no dog in this fight. I will conclude with the fact that I think the level of my corporal punishment was a bit excessive, yet I never once stole from my parents, told them to "fuck off," and never once considered beating them down.
post #115 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post
Mark, I would agree that in theory "time out" should work. However, sort of like communism, I have yet to see a parental unit that uses it as an effective tool of discipline.

I have yet to see a child that was spanked/beat that didnt cower in fear when viewing his parents and wasnt gonna be a fucked up human being when he grows up. Whats your point?
post #116 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post
I have yet to see a child that was spanked/beat that didnt cower in fear when viewing his parents and wasnt gonna be a fucked up human being when he grows up. Whats your point?

I think you need to make a thread to show me the error of my ways.
post #117 of 330
I have avoided comment on much of anything here following a purchase gone bad and some responses that followed, but was intrigued by this discussion. My parents did not spank any of us prior to the age of 8. They said that before the age of 8 we were not really able to understand right and wrong to the degree necessary for a spanking to be warranted. Beyond that, we were only spanked for two reasons: 1. If we hit one of our siblings; 2. If we lied to our parents. We all learned pretty early on that if we confessed what we did, no matter what it was, that our parents would punish us, but not as badly if we lied about it and got caught. As they explained it to us they would not be able to help us with a problem, a problem that we might not even perceive to be a problem, if they were not aware of the problem, so we needed to always tell them the truth. Also, if we accepted our punishment, which usually involved no t.v., games, computer, etc., and did not complain about it, two weeks of punishment was usually reduced to one week because of good behavior. Finally, my mom never spanked any of us, and the reason is quite unusual. My mom has a temper and once spanked my older brother too hard when she lost it. My dad pretty much took over after that, we had a family meeting, and we were told that none of us would ever be spanked when a parent was angry and that my dad would handle all spankings. My older brother seemed to get the most spankings, mostly because he lied a lot, and I remember one spanking, but I do not think any of my other siblings has ever been spanked. It is also interesting to me that my dad, who is normally thought of in strong terms by us, would go to his room alone and actually cry after having to spank my brother, and I assume me. So I know he did not enjoy having to spank us. I don't know if they were right or wrong in the way they handled it, but I don't think any of us ever thought we were punished without a real good reason. I learned early on in life that I was free to make my own choices, but I was not free to determine what the consequences would be for those choices. Since spanking was so rare in our house and we were all pretty well behaved I suppose it would be easy to argue it is not necessary to spank. I think the most effective tool used by my parents was the knowledge that they meant what they said and never bluffed. If we were dumb enough to break a rule and get caught, we would be punished. I remember when I was little, I think around 5 or 6, going to Disneyland with the whole family. We were standing in line for a ride and this one kid was really acting up. His mother told him to stop or he was going to get it. My dad said: "Watch this, he'll do it again and again and his mother will keep threatening to punish him, but nothing will ever happen. How many warnings do you guys get?" I said none. My dad was also right that this kid never stopped and his mother never did anything about it. The only time we ever got a warning was when we did something that my parents had not anticipated, that was not a "known" rule violation. We got a strong warning if it was something new and that would then be added to the list of known offences. Sometimes, we would try and claim we did not know, but that really never worked. In any event, I don't plan on having any kids so I guess I will never know how I would treat my own kids. If that changes, I imagine I would probably follow my parents route since it seemed to work out fine for all of us.
post #118 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post
I think you need to make a thread to show me the error of my ways.

I dunno, I was never spanked (and hardly timed out) and if I had been I would simply not aknowledge my parent's existence right now. There is stuff I just cannot forgive. I've been slapped in anger though and that I can accept. Violence as a child rearing strategy I cannot but I don't expect perfection in human relations. Authoritarian patterns and misreading "you don't need to be your kid's friend" to mean " your kid doesn't need to love you." just help to perpetuate assholish behaviour accross generations and I'll have to interact with those fucked up kids when they're adults. It's not that your kids need yo fear you its that you need your kids to fear you; you shouldn't be a parent. Note that I am speaking from a purely modern western perspective where the signification of violence and authority is calibrated a certain way.
post #119 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post
I have yet to see a child that was spanked/beat that didnt cower in fear when viewing his parents and wasnt gonna be a fucked up human being when he grows up. Whats your point?
According to the awesome peer reviewed article, 90% of American households spank their kids at some point. I'd assume at least some of your friends aren't fucked up human beings. EDIT: Whoops, forgot you weren't 'Mericun.
post #120 of 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhateverYouLike View Post
According to the awesome peer reviewed article, 90% of American households spank their kids at some point. I'd assume at least some of your friends aren't fucked up human beings.

EDIT: Whoops, forgot you weren't 'Mericun.

It was a joke showing that bullshit statements about anecdotal evidence didnt lead to interesting conclusions. Having some dude tell me the belt made him whole doesnt mean shit to me.
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