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post #8536 of 15698
So which side are you on GF?

Just kidding, I don't care. I've never driven in snow.
post #8537 of 15698
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenFrog View Post

What has been going on in the past couple pages has not been a discussion. It has more or less been a back and forth of "I'm right, and here's why," followed by, "No, you're wrong, and here's why."'

Absolutely no progress has been made on either side because there is massive knowledge asymmetry, in the sense that some people understand physics and others don't.

I can really respect a person who can admit when he/she's wrong. Unfortunately, large egos get in the way.

Yes, basic physics is beyond me. rolleyes.gif

When you getting that M3?
post #8538 of 15698
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Yes, basic physics is beyond me. rolleyes.gif

When you getting that M3?

laugh.gif

Wasn't directed towards you at all, brah.

I would get one now were it not for the fact that I spend, on average, eight days at home per month. Err, sorry, six days, actually.

But anyway, to get back to the topic at hand, can we all agree on the following and stop bickering?

AWD + snow tires > RWD/FWD + snow tires > AWD + all seasons > RWD/FWD + all seasons
post #8539 of 15698
Quote:
Originally Posted by djh View Post

So which side are you on GF?

Just kidding, I don't care. I've never driven in snow.

You're missing out. I fucking love driving in snow. Front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, AWD, doesn't matter, it's a fucking blast.

Quick story: I was 18, it was sometime between midnight and 5 am and snowing like a bitch. My ride in those days was a 1982 Toyota Tercel hatchback, a car that had ridiculous pickup for such a dinky little four burner. I'd had a couple of beers and smoked a little weed but wasn't completely lit. The Merritt Parkway was totally deserted, so I threw the car into a bootlegger that turned into a 360 (only time in my life I've pulled that off). I pulled off the highway to find a parking lot where my girlfriend and I could fool around - I found one that would require turning left at the light and then making an immediate left into the parking lot, essentially a 180 turn. When the light turned green I floored it so that my rear end fishtailed out, steered into the skid and zipped neatly into the parking lot. Suddenly my rear view is filled with red and blue flashing lights. SHIT. I'm a little bit drunk, I'm underage, and I'm carrying. This is about to turn into the worst night of my life, EXCEPT: the cop ignores the beer on my breath, tells me to knock it off and go straight home, and writes me out a ticket for "Unsafe movement of a stopped motor vehicle," with about a $75 fine. I've never been so relieved to get a traffic ticket in my life. I felt like I could have argued the ticket on semantic grounds, but didn't have the balls to claim that I didn't deserve something.
post #8540 of 15698
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenFrog View Post

What has been going on in the past couple pages has not been a discussion. It has more or less been a back and forth of "I'm right, and here's why," followed by, "No, you're wrong, and here's why."'

Absolutely no progress has been made on either side because there is massive knowledge asymmetry, in the sense that some people understand physics and others don't.

I can really respect a person who can admit when he/she's wrong. Unfortunately, large egos get in the way.

I understand Green: if we're not talking about BMW, there is no discussion and there is no progress. But on the contrary, I think its clearly been demonstrated that AWD is better, even your little formula shows that. It's taken a while, but I don't think its in vain.
post #8541 of 15698
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Y View Post


You do not understand what was happening in that video (at 1:34 I assume). First, overtaking in the braking zone is a standard maneuver, and cars in spec series (meaning identical hardware and tires) do it all the time, so to say that it is due to superior braking or handling only is not correct. Once that Audi had his nose on the inside, the outside car could not come in to prevent the pass. If you looked at telemetry from moves like that, you will know that the inside, overtaking car is slower at entry and around the turn. He gains a position because the car being overtaken has his space taken up on the racing line. This is the most common form of passing in racing.
 

 

I'm a RWD lover but you can't fight facts.  The point of AWD is that you can maintain a higher entry speed, shorter braking distance and a harder drive out of the turn which was the point of the video. The AWD system has proven to

 

  1. Better utilize engine braking during deceleration
  2. Keep the vehicle more stable while braking and
  3. Provide a superior drive out of the turn due to increased traction

 

Why is this so hard to understand? 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenFrog View Post


AWD + snow tires > RWD/FWD + snow tires > AWD + all seasons > RWD/FWD + all seasons

 

exactly.  Now ask which is more "fun" then you have opened a whole 'nother can of worms

post #8542 of 15698
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post

I understand Green: if we're not talking about BMW, there is no discussion and there is no progress. But on the contrary, I think its clearly been demonstrated that AWD is better, even your little formula shows that. It's taken a while, but I don't think its in vain.

Actually, Broheim, if you look at the common factor between the two top performing combinations in snow, it's the tires -- not the AWD drivetrain.
post #8543 of 15698
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpelstiltskin View Post

I'm a RWD lover but you can't fight facts.  The point of AWD is that you can maintain a higher entry speed, shorter braking distance and a harder drive out of the turn which was the point of the video. The AWD system has proven to
  1. Better utilize engine braking during deceleration
  2. Keep the vehicle more stable while braking and
  3. Provide a superior drive out of the turn due to increased traction

Why is this so hard to understand? 



exactly.  Now ask which is more "fun" then you have opened a whole 'nother can of worms

What can of worms? RWD is obviously more fun!

satisfied.gif
post #8544 of 15698
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpelstiltskin View Post

I'm a RWD lover but you can't fight facts. The point of AWD is that you can maintain a higher entry speed, shorter braking distance and a harder drive out of the turn which was the point of the video. The AWD system has proven to
  1. Better utilize engine braking during deceleration
  2. Keep the vehicle more stable while braking and
  3. Provide a superior drive out of the turn due to increased traction

Why is this so hard to understand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenFrog View Post

Actually, Broheim, if you look at the common factor between the two top performing combinations in snow, it's the tires -- not the AWD drivetrain.

Well, I thought we made progress. Please re-read the quote above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenFrog View Post

What can of worms? BMW is obviously more fun!

FTFY
post #8545 of 15698
Quote:
Originally Posted by imatlas View Post


You're missing out. I fucking love driving in snow. Front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, AWD, doesn't matter, it's a fucking blast.

Quick story: I was 18, it was sometime between midnight and 5 am and snowing like a bitch. My ride in those days was a 1982 Toyota Tercel hatchback, a car that had ridiculous pickup for such a dinky little four burner. I'd had a couple of beers and smoked a little weed but wasn't completely lit. The Merritt Parkway was totally deserted, so I threw the car into a bootlegger that turned into a 360 (only time in my life I've pulled that off). I pulled off the highway to find a parking lot where my girlfriend and I could fool around - I found one that would require turning left at the light and then making an immediate left into the parking lot, essentially a 180 turn. When the light turned green I floored it so that my rear end fishtailed out, steered into the skid and zipped neatly into the parking lot. Suddenly my rear view is filled with red and blue flashing lights. SHIT. I'm a little bit drunk, I'm underage, and I'm carrying. This is about to turn into the worst night of my life, EXCEPT: the cop ignores the beer on my breath, tells me to knock it off and go straight home, and writes me out a ticket for "Unsafe movement of a stopped motor vehicle," with about a $75 fine. I've never been so relieved to get a traffic ticket in my life. I felt like I could have argued the ticket on semantic grounds, but didn't have the balls to claim that I didn't deserve something.

haha i learned to drive in an '89, the old Blue Bomber, 4 gear manual, radio didn't work and my brother was sick of his friends getting in and trying to turn it on so there was just a big whole in the dash when I got it. Not my picture, ours had more rust, looked like shit but it just wouldn't die. i think we eventually donated because it was still running but no one would buy it and it was just an eyesore in the driveway.

post #8546 of 15698
Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl View Post


Well, I thought we made progress. Please re-read the quote above.
FTFY

Congratulations on your evolution to troll status.

I always believed in you!
post #8547 of 15698
Audi has proven time and time again that you can screw up full-time AWD. It's not just a fun factor - I'd say the E92 M3 wants to push, but it generally wants to go where the steering wheel is pointed. The RS4 feels crummy in comparison. Two things need to be separated out from this: Fundamental advantages of AWD (4 contact patches for engine braking, grip on throttle, etc.) and fundamental disadvantages of AWD (limited ability to induce manual oversteer, etc.).

Porsche has a bonkers awesome AWD system and Audi comes up short. Just my opinion and I'm not taking into consideration living in Detroit during a snowstorm.

EDIT: Reading the last few pages, I'm convinced Andre is the only guy that's actually tracked a car.
post #8548 of 15698
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1445 View Post

haha i learned to drive in an '89, the old Blue Bomber, 4 gear manual, radio didn't work and my brother was sick of his friends getting in and trying to turn it on so there was just a big whole in the dash when I got it. Not my picture, ours had more rust, looked like shit but it just wouldn't die. i think we eventually donated because it was still running but no one would buy it and it was just an eyesore in the driveway.

fistbump.gif

The radio was the saving grace in mine: before I got it my dad used it as his daily commuter and had put in a killer Blaupunkt system that was miles ahead of anything my friends had.
post #8549 of 15698
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramuman View Post

Audi has proven time and time again that you can screw up full-time AWD. It's not just a fun factor - I'd say the E92 M3 wants to push, but it generally wants to go where the steering wheel is pointed. The RS4 feels crummy in comparison. Two things need to be separated out from this: Fundamental advantages of AWD (4 contact patches for engine braking, grip on throttle, etc.) and fundamental disadvantages of AWD (limited ability to induce manual oversteer, etc.).

Porsche has a bonkers awesome AWD system and Audi comes up short. Just my opinion and I'm not taking into consideration living in Detroit during a snowstorm.

EDIT: Reading the last few pages, I'm convinced Andre is the only guy that's actually tracked a car.

 

Vague comparisons on car feel and unsubstantiated AWD brand bashing followed by a head-scratcher of a fundamental disadvantage. I am convinced by reading your post you are a formula d track star capable of discerning others' performance driving experience simply by reading their forum posts. worship2.gif

post #8550 of 15698
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vickt View Post

Vague comparisons on car feel and unsubstantiated AWD brand bashing followed by a head-scratcher of a fundamental disadvantage. I am convinced by reading your post you are a formula d track star capable of discerning others' performance driving experience simply by reading their forum posts. worship2.gif

I'm completely unqualified to talk about the topic. My only car is a Toyota Corolla with a 4A-F engine. I've also never worked on anything other than a facial.
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