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Cars We Drive! - Page 383

post #5731 of 14934
I'm sure the wagon handles very well. I just don't think it could ever handle as well as a sedan or a coupe could. My argument is if I had enough money to buy these high performance toys, I'd have a regular utilitarian car (such as a wagon or SUV) and a separate sports coupe/sedan.

That, and I think wagons are ugly as sin.
post #5732 of 14934
Dude, you're not making sense. Yes, I get that you don't like the looks of wagons (though you say you'd get a 'regular' wagon instead of the hi-po version) but there is nothing else you're saying that even makes sense here. I didn't mention anything about a sports wagon having to be your only car, or taking it on a track to run against sports cars - all I have been saying is that the performance difference between the sedan and wagon versions of the same car are virtually nil in real-world terms, while the actual usable value is quite different.
It's quite obvious that someone who can afford a brand new E63T is of decent means and can and would easily get a real sports car of some sort to complement the wagon - the E63T is a special-order only car that sells double digit units in the USA at essentially full (7 digit) prices. It caters to almost the most affluent, if not the most affluent buyer group that MB deals with in the USA, apart from the Maybach.
post #5733 of 14934

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/34289_120253251352232_5222410_n.jpg

 

lifted Ford truck. 

During the week, I do my soon-to-be-lawyery crap (and dress for it), but during the weekends I'll be found in jeans and cowboy boots and a white tshirt...or half nekkid in the river. I'm all over the place.

post #5734 of 14934
Quote:
Originally Posted by impolyt_one View Post

Dude, you're not making sense. Yes, I get that you don't like the looks of wagons (though you say you'd get a 'regular' wagon instead of the hi-po version) but there is nothing else you're saying that even makes sense here. I didn't mention anything about a sports wagon having to be your only car, or taking it on a track to run against sports cars - all I have been saying is that the performance difference between the sedan and wagon versions of the same car are virtually nil in real-world terms, while the actual usable value is quite different.
It's quite obvious that someone who can afford a brand new E63T is of decent means and can and would easily get a real sports car of some sort to complement the wagon - the E63T is a special-order only car that sells double digit units in the USA at essentially full (7 digit) prices. It caters to almost the most affluent, if not the most affluent buyer group that MB deals with in the USA, apart from the Maybach.

I personally would never buy a wagon, but what I'm saying is that it's a very deliberate choice to get a performance wagon over its sedan/coupe counterpart. To me, high performance and utility don't go hand-in-hand. So when you're going to spend upwards of $75,000 on a high performance car, why not just get the best it can be? If you're in the market for a CTS-V, why would you get the wagon over the coupe? You're not buying the car to be practical.. it's a toy car. You get the coupe/sedan and buy a secondary vehicle for the everyday chores and whatnot. That's just my reasoning and how I would be thinking. Now, if I had fuck you money and price was no concern, then who the hell cares. Buy the E63T, but also make sure you have an e92 m3 (:P), a porsche CGT, and maybe an R8 in your stable.

Sure, the numbers show that the performance differences are very negligible between the wagons and coupes and sedans.. but still, the coupes and sedans do perform slightly better, so why sacrifice that advantage in performance, albeit marginal, they have for utility? I'm just taking a very strict approach to buying a high performance vehicle. Back to the example of being in the market for a CTS-V. I don't care how much more utility I'll get from the wagon, I'm buying a non-sensical high-performance vehicle that gets shit mileage and is expensive as hell but still super fun to drive, so I'm going to get the coupe/sedan. So again, by that token, I'd take it one step further and get the coupe since it'll probably handle better than the sedan due to weight savings, etc. Then, I'll go out and buy a used subaru forester or something.
post #5735 of 14934

Gonna leave this here.
post #5736 of 14934
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenFrog View Post

I'm sure the wagon handles very well. I just don't think it could ever handle as well as a sedan or a coupe could. My argument is if I had enough money to buy these high performance toys, I'd have a regular utilitarian car (such as a wagon or SUV) and a separate sports coupe/sedan.
That, and I think wagons are ugly as sin.


Every wagon I have ever driven the wagon has been as good or better than the sedan, if you go to germany you will see families doing 180kph with the dog in the booth going somewhere, you can't do that in a porche and if I had paid to pay north of 350k$ for a car, I would want to drive it everyday, so having it as a second car makes no sense to me.


Try to go on youtube and see some of the reviews of M5, RS and AMG wagons.
post #5737 of 14934
Is GreenFrog drunk on the M3 Koolaid again? lol
post #5738 of 14934
puzzled.gif

This has nothing to do with my love for the m3..

Am I really being that irrational? It's simply my personal point of view. I'm just saying that if I had a need for a practical, utilitarian vehicle, but also wanted a performance sports car, I wouldn't try to hit two birds with one stone by buying a sports wagon. I'd buy the sportier coupe and buy a shitbox SUV. Not that big of a deal, methinks.

Maybe my perspective will change once I get older. But right now that's how I would approach it if I were in that kind of situation.

I'm also definitely not saying that sports wagons are bad in terms of performance.. This always happens when I argue about wagons with people who love wagons, my good friend included, lol.
post #5739 of 14934
dude, what do you think the M3 is? An uncompromising sports car?
post #5740 of 14934
Quote:
Originally Posted by impolyt_one View Post

dude, what do you think the M3 is? An uncompromising sports car?

Again, this has nothing to do with the M3, but I'll go there if you're so fixated on it. I was afraid this was going to go in this direction: that you would extend my argument and say that most of the performance coupes/sedans kind of go against the philosophy I'm preaching because they're heavy, loaded with 'unnecessary' technology, and whatnot. But it (the m3) still strikes an excellent balance between performance and comfort. I think those are two qualities you can reasonably balance and strive to achieve when making a performance vehicle. But to try to add 'utility' to the mix just irks me, somehow. Performance cars aren't meant to be utilitarian. It's nice if you can get practical features through technology (like increased MPG with turbocharged V8s), but to have it as a defining feature, again, irks me. Does not compute.
post #5741 of 14934
That is preposterous, and you're not getting my point and understanding why I use the M3 as an example, because:

a) the M3 is as much, if not more, a compromise between sports car and practical upright sedan with its own limitations (which it is - it's no 911) than a performance wagon vs the sedan version of the same car. In fact, BMW is probably insanely close to making an M3 touring wagon with every generation, but don't make it because it won't make significant amounts more money than it would cost to develop and crash test and advertise in its respective markets, that and they couldn't sell them in America where everybody thinks they need a battleram to drive on the streets. When they do make an M3 wagon (and they probably will break down and make one eventually, there's absolutely nothing stopping them besides the profits) - it will run a couple tenths slower than the coupe and sedan, naturally, and nobody will care, because it will have double the utility. It will follow logic there. Everybody will understand why they will make the M3 wagon, and people who want one will buy one.

b) You act as though people just can just add on a beater whenever necessary - that basically only works if you plan to live in a place where nobody else really wants to live and you have free reign on parking. Otherwise, you can be of good means but still be forced to pick a couple/few cars to own at a time. The only house I have seen in Tokyo I was interested in actually owning cost $3m, and yet it had car spaces for 1 compact and 1 midsize in the garage. That isn't even common here, most houses have 1 space. There's no need to own a beater as it's the middle of the city and stores will wrap everything so that your car doesn't get dirty or marred, but utility is a boon, and so is the possibility of having 7 seats. When you're living in confined areas you minimize the footprint and maximize the quality. The E63T wagon, the M5T, the RS6 Avant, they fill this void as the top model in their size class. The E92 M3 is actually a pretty good car, all things told, but it's still a coupe with a mostly useless backseat and a conventional trunk, which makes it fairly useless for anybody but a bachelor. it doesn't get very good fuel economy, which yields it negative points considering it's size and performance stats.

c) The AMG E63T has a ton of cachet in hyper developed/matured markets like Europe and Japan (I wouldn't consider America in this because the monied centers of the country tend not to be hospitable to private drivers, barring the Hollywood people and their leases), because a) it tends to be a personally-owned private vehicle, vs a business-owned car like an S-class, b) being the highest model in its range, c) rarity value, and d) AMG was once the purveyor of insanely expensive to-order cars that tripped $300K for the E-class Hammer and that reputation exists wherever they were sold back then, and while the prices have come down due to the full MB takeover and volume sales, they're still built similarly and sold at a third of the price now. BMW M and Audi quattro have never come close to that level in their history.

d) the M3 is good, but not a supercar. There are cheap American muscle cars running pretty close to what the M3 does, at half the price. The E63T - it's a 550hp wagon with seats for 7 and performance on par with your beloved M3 coupe, what else does it need to prove? The CTS-V wagon is close, but it's so ugly that I want to pretend it doesn't exist.

there's far more than this, but this is very tip of the iceberg. There's no more reason for a modern Range Rover to exist in the SUV category as there is an E63T in the wagon category, or an M3 in the compact category.
post #5742 of 14934
This is as fruitless as political or religious debate, I get the appeal of having a sports car be just a two seated little rocketship but prefer having a Swiss army knife for a car that could pull off everything. My fiancé hates wagons bc she just sees them as boring family carriers but at the same time wants a Lexus rx...Greenfrog is probably among the majority of people, at least Americans(not meant as an insult,I'm American), that thinks wagons just look too bulbous; a pity because when they don't sell, they aren't offered as readily.
post #5743 of 14934
Quote:
Originally Posted by impolyt_one View Post

A sports wagon is totally practical. I can understand the aversion (and that's almost strictly an American thing, as sports wagons are outrageously popular in Europe and Japan, and the rest of the Asian markets aren't developed/matured enough to appreciate cars like this), but saying they're impractical is way off base - just look at the numbers.
Imagine if HRoi replaced his M3 sedan with the E63T wagon - he'd have an E63 and a 997 GT3, that's like a one-two for street/track cars, and as you can see above, the E63 gets slightly better mileage, is much bigger and utilitarian (most people don't ever use the 7 passenger feature, but I would very occasionally) and it's even faster than the M3.
I was actually looking for a wagon - the M3 replaced a VW Touareg and I wanted some of the same utility of the SUV in a high performance vehicle. but a wagon was not available and now I have the next best thing

with that said, I absolutely hate the way a lot of these wagons look like today. if BMW made an M5T that looks like the E34/39, I'm in. or if Audi brings the RS6 Avant here, that would be my next car. the E63T (actually all current gen Mercs) looks terrible.
post #5744 of 14934
It is a useless debate if you can't understand how great performance wagon are, but since you don't see them often in America and can't test drive them, I can understand. I was once driven in an Audi A6 Allroad (the V6, previous model, so not even close to a 63AMG or M5 in term of performance), and was really amazed at the acceleration, which is in the 7 second to the 100 km/h. There isn't that many rolling things that are as comfortable and secure while at the same time being affordable, reliable and FAST.

If I had to choose a couple of cars, realistically, I would choose a performance german wagon, like the latest BMW 335d to bring the kids to school, move furniture and all, and save money for a track/weekend drive modified old Porsche.
post #5745 of 14934
^ you can get a Alpina D3/D5 for the same as an E91 335d/ F11 535d, same mileage year and equipment, but with 350hp.

The D5 does 18kpl and 5.1sec 0-100kph.
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