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post #11221 of 15714
Foo- the "economy" issue used to be true but is now largely myth. Edmunds and others have written on it of late. Two reasons: in the US at least most don't drive them economically. They rev high, thrash, or just shift at the wrong time. And today, the new automatics are smaller, lighter and more economical than ever before. With joe average behind the wheel, the chances are better than ever that the auto trans might be better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

You guys are not recognizing a crucial distinction.

There are two potential reasons to prefer a stick shift: (1) economy, and (2) driving pleasure. To the extent manual transmissions remain more popular in Europe amongst lower end cars, it is largely due to interests in economy (either miles per gallon, cost of the transmission, or both). The telltale is that, amongst performance cars, manual transmissions are quickly disappearing--and much more quickly in Europe than America. A good dual-clutch automatic will shift much faster than any human being could possibly accomplish with a fully manual stick shift, so those interested in pure performance numbers will naturally prefer automated mauals. Witness makers like Porsche and Ferrari migrating away from stickshifts. Porsche's new GT3, to much racous disapproval State-side, does not have an available stick shift, even though it is the purest and most raw iteration of the 911. The new generation of supercars (P1, LaFerrari, 918, etc.) is completely bereft of manual transmissions.

Makers like BMW and Porsche have discussed many times that the only real pressure they face to keep manual transmissions in their top performance cars is to appease American enthusiasts. Europeans, apparently, just aren't that sentimental about it.
post #11222 of 15714
I'm curious how manual purists feel about manual gearboxes that do the engine blip for you when you downshift. Okay or corruption?
post #11223 of 15714
I'm sure they're viewed with contempt by those who have learned to heel-and-toe (or heal-and-toe, as the kids are wont to say) properly. Myself, I kind of suck at heel and toeing (need more practice and it's not the kind of thing you can practice on a public street) so I can see how it makes track driving with a manual more accessible to more people.

I also suppose that it prevents drivetrain wear by people who never rev match when downshifting. But mostly I suspect that car makers realized people found the automatic throttle blipping on DCT's cool, so they put it onto the manuals
post #11224 of 15714
I don't get how people don't rev match while down shifting. To me, it's almost a sacrosanct requirement when driving stick.. It's terrible for the transmission not to, not to mention plain uncomfortable with the jerking motion at the lower gears.

*scratches head*
post #11225 of 15714
Most people simply don't need to do it. If you're breaking so hard that your speed is dropping at a pace that requires you to select a low gear be yore you hit your corner then you're probably driving too aggressively to be safe.

If you're on a track it's a different matter but the number of track-drivers in any given city numbers in the hundreds while the street driers number in the millions.
post #11226 of 15714
Well I tend to downshift in anticipation before braking so I have a different driving style. The one you're describing is just plain boring.
post #11227 of 15714
also, if carmakers were serious about making manuals more accessible to more people, they would focus on creating a device that prevents the car from stalling when getting underway from a standing (or hilly) stop. that's the number one fear of (novice) manual drivers.

but i guess they have realized that their market consists more of the people who want to sound like Ayrton Senna while they're downshifting to take the turn into Winn Dixie, hence this throttle blipping device.
post #11228 of 15714
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRoi View Post

also, if carmakers were serious about making manuals more accessible to more people, they would focus on creating a device that prevents the car from stalling when getting underway from a standing (or hilly) stop. that's the number one fear of (novice) manual drivers.

but i guess they have realized that their market consists more of the people who want to sound like Ayrton Senna while they're downshifting to take the turn into Winn Dixie, hence this throttle blipping device.

I would hope hill brake-assist would suffice for these drivers.

also, the only car i know of that has automatic rev-matching is the nissan 350/370. Are there any others? I'd be surprised to find it in the higher-end sports cars.
post #11229 of 15714
People could just learn how to use the clutch, it's not that hard.
post #11230 of 15714
Quote:
Originally Posted by Find Finn View Post

People could just learn how to use the clutch, it's not that hard.

Or the parking brake trick if you're THAT BAD on hills.
post #11231 of 15714
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cary Grant View Post

Foo- the "economy" issue used to be true but is now largely myth. Edmunds and others have written on it of late. Two reasons: in the US at least most don't drive them economically. They rev high, thrash, or just shift at the wrong time. And today, the new automatics are smaller, lighter and more economical than ever before. With joe average behind the wheel, the chances are better than ever that the auto trans might be better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

You guys are not recognizing a crucial distinction.

There are two potential reasons to prefer a stick shift: (1) economy, and (2) driving pleasure. To the extent manual transmissions remain more popular in Europe amongst lower end cars, it is largely due to interests in economy (either miles per gallon, cost of the transmission, or both). The telltale is that, amongst performance cars, manual transmissions are quickly disappearing--and much more quickly in Europe than America. A good dual-clutch automatic will shift much faster than any human being could possibly accomplish with a fully manual stick shift, so those interested in pure performance numbers will naturally prefer automated mauals. Witness makers like Porsche and Ferrari migrating away from stickshifts. Porsche's new GT3, to much racous disapproval State-side, does not have an available stick shift, even though it is the purest and most raw iteration of the 911. The new generation of supercars (P1, LaFerrari, 918, etc.) is completely bereft of manual transmissions.

Makers like BMW and Porsche have discussed many times that the only real pressure they face to keep manual transmissions in their top performance cars is to appease American enthusiasts. Europeans, apparently, just aren't that sentimental about it.

I believe teh Foo was also referring to the relatively high purchase price of the auto-manaul option and high maintenance costs when he was talking about economy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenFrog View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRoi View Post

also, if carmakers were serious about making manuals more accessible to more people, they would focus on creating a device that prevents the car from stalling when getting underway from a standing (or hilly) stop. that's the number one fear of (novice) manual drivers.

but i guess they have realized that their market consists more of the people who want to sound like Ayrton Senna while they're downshifting to take the turn into Winn Dixie, hence this throttle blipping device.

I would hope hill brake-assist would suffice for these drivers.

also, the only car i know of that has automatic rev-matching is the nissan 350/370. Are there any others? I'd be surprised to find it in the higher-end sports cars.

The new 911 manual has rev-matching.

Subaru, VW, and I think the Fiat 500 have hill holder feature in the US.
For some reason, I think VW has it on their DSG too.
post #11232 of 15714
Quote:
Originally Posted by zippyh View Post

I believe teh Foo was also referring to the relatively high purchase price of the auto-manaul option and high maintenance costs when he was talking about economy.
The new 911 manual has rev-matching.

Subaru, VW, and I think the Fiat 500 have hill holder feature in the US.
For some reason, I think VW has it on their DSG too.

That the 911 has it genuinely shocks me. Wtf?
post #11233 of 15714
I was in the Porsche dealer yesterday. They had a new Boxster S on the floor in white. $77K. It looked like a 911 and a Lotus had mated. Impressive looking and quite a change from previous editions.

Next to it was a 911. $112K.

Who says there is no inflation?
post #11234 of 15714
I hate to admit that I love the new Boxster more than the 991, which to me looks like a bloated piece of shit. And I'm a die-hard 911 guy.
post #11235 of 15714

I think the new Cayman S is currently the best looking of the bunch.

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