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Cars We Drive! - Page 686

post #10276 of 14577
Quote:
Originally Posted by aravenel View Post

Not if you know that one is a fast-food style burger (i.e. small, griddled patty) and the other is a pub style burger (i.e. large, grilled/broiled patty), and that you much prefer one to the other.

Excellent point.
post #10277 of 14577
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

I thought the comparison to baseball was crystal clear. The point is that cars are technical things, largely assessable on technical, mechanical grounds. If you don't understand the difference between hydraulic and electronic steering assist, for example, your firsthand experience with a car's steering feel is going to be less informed, even if it is firsthand. In contrast, someone well-versed on the difference may be able to tell you more about how to different cars will feel, even if he's never driven them. This argument now spans the whole forum. MC (excuse me, CM) is essentially a dead entity because it is now framed around the dialogue between buyers and sellers. The well-informed hobbyist has no place.

That's not to say the intangible experience doesn't matter. But for that, we are far better off listening to professionals than waiting for a random guy on the internet to report on what it's like to drive his 911. After all, none of us have driven as many cars as those who are paid to drive them. What we can do, is educate ourselves.

I think you meant to say electric steering assist since even hydraulic assist involves electronics nowadays. But that's a great topic to discuss. Electric assist is getting better and better and there are certainly cars that get it more right than the hydraulic assist other cars use. I chose my car in part because I preferred the road feel to the other cars I drove most of which were equipped with electric assist. As electric steering solutions become more refined, I've read that the gap has narrowed greatly. Plenty of new EPS cars have been praised for their steering dynamics, and understanding the difference (which to be honest based on the fact that you called it "electronic" I'm not sure you do) is not what matters. I'd rather talk to someone who has actually driven two cars to ask which one has better steering feel than to have someone who knows enough to be dangerous provide an underinformed opinion.

The mechanical nature of cars does not remove the human element. I can't help but think that if we were talking about bespoke clothing you would be on the other side of the fence. There are technical aspects to jackets that can be debated without first-hand knowledge but that level of debate is pretty rudimentary.

As for the burgers, substitute minetta tavern for five guys. Compare five guys to in n out . Compare McDonalds to Burger King. You can have it your way.
post #10278 of 14577
I think the simple fact of the matter is if aspirational cars were not discussed here it would mainly be me telling people an MB GL will fit their SUV/people hauler needs well, idfnl telling us of the snow prowess of his Audi with high perf tires, and GF talking about his BMWs. Given the kid is 24 I'm kinda jealous he's already had two decent BMWs. I was still using the bone shaker as my main means of transportation at that age.
post #10279 of 14577
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

The G-class is supposed to be a land barge. You buy it for it's offroad ability and build quality, and accept compromises to comfort, drivability, spacing, etc. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The 6-series, along with all other current BMWs, reflect significant divergences from what has made BMW a great, distinct maker. They have gotten too heavy and large. So, even as power has increased proportionately, driving dynamics have suffered. Yes, the new cars are faster, but the key is that they no longer feel the same. The numbers were never what gave BMW credible claim to the title "The Ultimate Driving Machine" they use in marketing. It was how much control and feel and confidence the cars gave to their drivers. Technological driving aids are arguably necessary for the average driver to handle increased power. However, the older BMW would have insisted they are not making cars for average drivers and such aids would also have been less needed because so much power wouldn't be needed to move so much weight. The current switch from hydraulic steering assist to electronic assist (not exclusive to BMW) has been particularly detrimental. By all accounts, BMW's famed steering feel is no more.

Even the current, outgoing M3--as great as a car as it is--is nonetheless a serious departure from the original. So much so that the 1-series M coupe was created to be a better facsimile.

Some will argue that this all has to be, due to changing markets, regulations, etc. They are probably right. But that doesn't change the fact that BMW no longer makes the sort of car that they built their reputation on.

I can guarantee you that 99% of g wagon buyers now a day, have no intention to drive it off road unless you call the sidewalk in LA or NY off road.

All cars have become bigger, the Mk1 Golf is the size of the current VW Polo (size smaller than the golf) and so have the people who drive them, which is why HM now offer a XL Eames Lounge, also the tech and security features in the new cars today require room and weight than wasn't needed in the 80's etc.

The 6's is a GT car and should be bigger is the whole point of a gran tourer 2+2 and boot for luggage.

Tech can be a good and a bad thing, it can alienate you from the driving experience, but on the other hand it will save your ass and just because you can afford an M3, 911, Ferrari etc. is doesn't mean you have the ability to control it, there's a reason why the 993 Turbo and MB Gullwing are called "widow makers".

I was looking at a 535d/550d/640d a while back and with a remap the 35d/40d has a better power to weight ratio, than 500 Abarth SS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteslashasian View Post

Volvo has the XC70 still, but no longer sells the V70 in the States.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
There is also the XC60.

Audi has the new "Allroad" which seems like a slightly beefed up A4 Avant. The XC70 has loads more room.

*edit* Seems like Volvo has an optional Polestar package you can add to any of their Turbo engines. Bumps the T6 in the XC70 to 325 hp and 354 lb. ft. of torque; not too shabby.

The allroad is exactly that a raised A4/A6 with extra plastic and if I remember correctly tougher seats,

If you want to go allroad go A6 4F.

Polestar is a swedish tuner, who does remaps and runs Volvo's touring car team, so they know Volvo's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

So to whomever asked about what car to get a few posts above...this means the 2013 will be had at screaming deals very soon.

The current XC90 is from 03 with a facelift in 07, so it's like buying a very old GL.
post #10280 of 14577
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

I think the simple fact of the matter is if aspirational cars were not discussed here it would mainly be me telling people an MB GL will fit their SUV/people hauler needs well, idfnl telling us of the snow prowess of his Audi with high perf tires, and GF talking about his BMWs. Given the kid is 24 I'm kinda jealous he's already had two decent BMWs. I was still using the bone shaker as my main means of transportation at that age.

I think the point is authenticity. You are always pretty clear when you're talking about something you've driven or not. There are certain facts that can be discussed - for instance the weight difference between a 991 and 993. We have people saying one is substantially heavier than the other which accounts for a substantial downgrade in driving quality when in fact the difference in weight is almost negligible according to 30 seconds of research (3064 lbs for a 1998 993 coupe vs 3042 for a 2013 991 coupe).

I'm not advocating the removal of debate of mechanical or technical qualities, merely saying that people should be a bit more forthcoming with their backup with respect to qualitative judgment so that the readers can judge when someone is speaking out of turn.
post #10281 of 14577

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.  As for the other topic of the day...no comment smile.gif

post #10282 of 14577
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

I think the simple fact of the matter is if aspirational cars were not discussed here it would mainly be me telling people an MB GL will fit their SUV/people hauler needs well

LOL true that.

On the cars we drive front, the F355 got new hyperflow catalytic converters last week, and the car is running AWESOME. Mrs. TC had a minor health issue that is keeping her from driving for a few weeks (nothing serious), so I've had the whole stable to myself--it's a blast driving a different car every day. LOL
post #10283 of 14577
I've seen everal BMW 6 GC's around and I think they look great in the flesh. Large, yes, but I don't think egregiously so and would make excellent highway cruisers. It certainly is NOT a track car.
post #10284 of 14577
Any thoughts on the new 4 series?
post #10285 of 14577
Quote:
Originally Posted by sportin_life View Post

Any thoughts on the new 4 series?

Vomit-worthy? The jewelry on the car is really tasteless.
post #10286 of 14577
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnFacconable View Post

I think the point is authenticity. You are always pretty clear when you're talking about something you've driven or not. There are certain facts that can be discussed - for instance the weight difference between a 991 and 993. We have people saying one is substantially heavier than the other which accounts for a substantial downgrade in driving quality when in fact the difference in weight is almost negligible according to 30 seconds of research (3064 lbs for a 1998 993 coupe vs 3042 for a 2013 991 coupe).

I'm not advocating the removal of debate of mechanical or technical qualities, merely saying that people should be a bit more forthcoming with their backup with respect to qualitative judgment so that the readers can judge when someone is speaking out of turn.
yeah, that was my bad. surprised actually that the weight difference is so small. I have driven both and the 993 feels more nimble (possibly because of its size, plus I prefer the "analog" rather than the "digital" feel of the steering), which is why I made a bad assumption about the weight.

at the end of the day the 993 feels to me more like a sportscar, and the 991 like a GT. which was kind of the original point
post #10287 of 14577
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteslashasian View Post

I've seen everal BMW 6 GC's around and I think they look great in the flesh. Large, yes, but I don't think egregiously so and would make excellent highway cruisers. It certainly is NOT a track car.

i've seen a few as well, but the ones I've seen were all weird colors like brown and baby-poop tan. I don't understand it.
post #10288 of 14577
Well, it's only appropriate to pick colors suitable for a long turd.
post #10289 of 14577
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRoi View Post

yeah, that was my bad. surprised actually that the weight difference is so small. I have driven both and the 993 feels more nimble (possibly because of its size, plus I prefer the "analog" rather than the "digital" feel of the steering), which is why I made a bad assumption about the weight.

at the end of the day the 993 feels to me more like a sportscar, and the 991 like a GT. which was kind of the original point

Didn't mean to single you out for a mistake but this last post does perfectly illustrate my point. Your seat of the pants comparison between the 991 and 993 is a better contribution to the dialogue on the difference in the two cars than someone reading from a spec sheet or parroting Chris Harris opinions.

And I'm not trying to kill all debate from people with no first hand experience. I have no problem with foo's comments that the GT3 not offering a manual transmission feels wrong to him even though (guessing) he has never driven a GT3.

And with that, I will end my crusade.

deadhorse-a.gif
post #10290 of 14577
Quote:
Originally Posted by gomestar View Post

i've seen a few as well, but the ones I've seen were all weird colors like brown and baby-poop tan. I don't understand it.

seen so many gorgeous gcs in Newport past couple of months, so svelte
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