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Cars We Drive! - Page 685

post #10261 of 15743
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

The G-class is supposed to be a land barge. You buy it for it's offroad ability and build quality, and accept compromises to comfort, drivability, spacing, etc.

The 6-series, along with all other current BMWs, reflect significant divergences from what has made BMW a great, distinct maker. They have gotten too heavy and large. So, even as power has increased proportionately, driving dynamics have suffered. Yes, the new cars are faster, but the key is that they no longer feel the same. The numbers were never what gave BMW credible claim to the title "The Ultimate Driving Machine" they use in marketing. It was how much control and feel and confidence the cars gave to their drivers. Technological driving aids are arguably necessary for the average driver to handle increased power. However, the older BMW would have insisted they are not making cars for average drivers and such aids would also have been less needed because so much power wouldn't be needed to move so much weight. The current switch from hydraulic steering assist to electronic assist (not exclusive to BMW) has been particularly detrimental. By all accounts, BMW's famed steering feel is no more.

Even the current, outgoing M3--as great as a car as it is--is nonetheless a serious departure from the original. So much so that the 1-series M coupe was created to be a better facsimile.

Some will argue that this all has to be, due to changing markets, regulations, etc. They are probably right. But that doesn't change the fact that BMW no longer makes the sort of car that they built their reputation on.

Wait until we're all in the electric motor age where each wheel can all act completely independently, screw rear diff..., car will perform better for sure by then, though you would probably hate them even more (computer nanny state). Also they won't have more than 2 forward driven gear if it's electric...
post #10262 of 15743
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteslashasian View Post

They still offer it, but it hasn't changed much since it was first introduced. I believe it is set for a complete redesign to be revealed in 2014.

So to whomever asked about what car to get a few posts above...this means the 2013 will be had at screaming deals very soon.
post #10263 of 15743
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

The G-class is supposed to be a land barge. You buy it for it's offroad ability and build quality, and accept compromises to comfort, drivability, spacing, etc.

The 6-series, along with all other current BMWs, reflect significant divergences from what has made BMW a great, distinct maker. They have gotten too heavy and large. So, even as power has increased proportionately, driving dynamics have suffered. Yes, the new cars are faster, but the key is that they no longer feel the same. The numbers were never what gave BMW credible claim to the title "The Ultimate Driving Machine" they use in marketing. It was how much control and feel and confidence the cars gave to their drivers. Technological driving aids are arguably necessary for the average driver to handle increased power. However, the older BMW would have insisted they are not making cars for average drivers and such aids would also have been less needed because so much power wouldn't be needed to move so much weight. The current switch from hydraulic steering assist to electronic assist (not exclusive to BMW) has been particularly detrimental. By all accounts, BMW's famed steering feel is no more.

Even the current, outgoing M3--as great as a car as it is--is nonetheless a serious departure from the original. So much so that the 1-series M coupe was created to be a better facsimile.

Some will argue that this all has to be, due to changing markets, regulations, etc. They are probably right. But that doesn't change the fact that BMW no longer makes the sort of car that they built their reputation on.

This is one of the things that makes the 911 so great, and a real outlier among long-time models. While it has been getting slightly bigger, Porsche got wise a couple of decades back and realized that if it gets heavier, you lose the driving dynamics over time.
post #10264 of 15743
But the current (991) 911 is a lot heavier (than the 993 at least), larger, and has moved from hydraulic to electronic steering - exactly the same gripes that foo wrote. The difference in driving feel between the 991 and the 993 are stark.

But at least Porsche has the Cayman which feels a lot more like the 993. The 1M sadly is no more, and the M cars are taking one more step away from their traditional character by going to turbocharging.

Sadly it seems like the only way to go back to those days is to buy one of the old cars or something ridiculous like the Atom
post #10265 of 15743
HRoi is right about the 911. While it is certainly more evolutionary than pretty much any other car out there, Porsche still gives way to the times and the market demands (of the ignorant). Hence, the death of its hydraulic steering and no more stick shift in the GT3. The latter almost makes less sense than the former. You don't buy the GT3 for all-out performance--for that, there is the Turbo, Turbo S, GT2, etc. The GT3 has been the most "pure" 911 available. So what the fuck is up with the dual clutch?
post #10266 of 15743
Is it too late to petition to change the name of this thread from "cars we drive" to "cars we have never driven (or possibly seen in person) but opine on nonetheless"? It seems we're only a few steps away from having the equivalent of a car thread based in car-free Portland or a thread on private planes populated mostly by Robb Report readers. This isn't meant to disparage the actual drivers on here who tell us about cars they've driven, if not owned. When people discuss cars they've never driven, they may as well just link to something written by someone who has actually seen the car and written an informed opinion.
post #10267 of 15743

worthwhille commentary, thanks for your input.

post #10268 of 15743
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnFacconable View Post

Is it too late to petition to change the name of this thread from "cars we drive" to "cars we have never driven (or possibly seen in person) but opine on nonetheless"? It seems we're only a few steps away from having the equivalent of a car thread based in car-free Portland or a thread on private planes populated mostly by Robb Report readers. This isn't meant to disparage the actual drivers on here who tell us about cars they've driven, if not owned. When people discuss cars they've never driven, they may as well just link to something written by someone who has actually seen the car and written an informed opinion.

Can we not talk knowledgeably about professional baseball without being professional baseball players? Cars are not things one must individually experience to be able to speak of usefully. They are, under it all, machines. To a great extent (though not fully), we can understand them through their mechanicals, performance statistics, and yes, through the experiences of credible testers.
post #10269 of 15743
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnFacconable View Post

Is it too late to petition to change the name of this thread from "cars we drive" to "cars we have never driven (or possibly seen in person) but opine on nonetheless"? It seems we're only a few steps away from having the equivalent of a car thread based in car-free Portland or a thread on private planes populated mostly by Robb Report readers. This isn't meant to disparage the actual drivers on here who tell us about cars they've driven, if not owned. When people discuss cars they've never driven, they may as well just link to something written by someone who has actually seen the car and written an informed opinion.

Oh hai, welcome to teh intarwebz.

Seriously though, by this logic, this entire forum would not exist. One does not need to own something to form an opinion on it.
post #10270 of 15743
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Can we not talk knowledgeably about professional baseball without being professional baseball players? Cars are not things one must individually experience to be able to speak of usefully. They are, under it all, machines. To a great extent (though not fully), we can understand them through their mechanicals, performance statistics, and yes, through the experiences of credible testers.

I'm not sure what baseball has to do with cars or why that reductionist stance wouldn't apply to everything else on this forum (bespoke goods included). A lot of this thread is helping people target cars for acquisition and there is plenty of help in here from knowledgeable gents like white/asian, hroi, jayjay, huntsman, greenfrog and idfnl among numerous others. A large portion of this thread also seems to be, for example, guys talking about how the 991 doesn't drive as nicely as the 993 from people who've driven neither. Now perhaps you've driven numerous BMW's and Porsche's over the years and you're not the right target for this opinion, but there are certainly people saying "x doesn't drive as nice as y" when they've driven neither x nor y and are simply making such statements based on what they've read or heard without referencing a source. Frequently people say Chris Harris says blah blah blah which to me is fine - they are referencing a presumably qualified opinion. Would even be fine to say, everyone who has test-driven those two prefers x, without saying any specific source. But to pass off third party opinions as your own is not the basis of a qualified opinion.

And just to be clear, with respect to aesthetics, I completely agree that anyone is qualified to render an opinion, but with respect to qualitative experience of driving a car, it's inauthentic to pass off someone else's opinion as your own without acknowledging the fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aravenel View Post

Seriously though, by this logic, this entire forum would not exist. One does not need to own something to form an opinion on it.

If someone were to ask me which tasted better - a shake shack burger or a minetta tavern burger - wouldn't it be idiotic for me to choose one and not at least say that I've eaten neither one?
post #10271 of 15743
I think "white/asian, hroi, jayjay, huntsman, greenfrog" should all be feeling a little insulted at the moment.
post #10272 of 15743
I thought the comparison to baseball was crystal clear. The point is that cars are technical things, largely assessable on technical, mechanical grounds. If you don't understand the difference between hydraulic and electronic steering assist, for example, your firsthand experience with a car's steering feel is going to be less informed, even if it is firsthand. In contrast, someone well-versed on the difference may be able to tell you more about how two different cars will feel, even if he's never driven them. This argument now spans the whole forum. MC (excuse me, CM) is essentially a dead entity because it is now framed around the dialogue between buyers and sellers. The well-informed hobbyist has no place.

That's not to say the intangible experience doesn't matter. But for that, we are far better off listening to professionals than waiting for a random guy on the internet to report on what it's like to drive his 911. After all, none of us have driven as many cars as those who are paid to drive them. What we can do, is educate ourselves.
post #10273 of 15743
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRoi View Post

But the current (991) 911 is a lot heavier (than the 993 at least)

I'm pretty sure that's wrong.
post #10274 of 15743
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnFacconable View Post

If someone were to ask me which tasted better - a shake shack burger or a minetta tavern burger - wouldn't it be idiotic for me to choose one and not at least say that I've eaten neither one?

It would be idiotic, indeed. But completely different. Again, cars are technical things, the experience of which is governed by physics. If you understand them mechanically, you'll find that you can often predict how professional drivers and reviewers will judge them.
post #10275 of 15743
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnFacconable View Post

If someone were to ask me which tasted better - a shake shack burger or a minetta tavern burger - wouldn't it be idiotic for me to choose one and not at least say that I've eaten neither one?

Not if you know that one is a fast-food style burger (i.e. small, griddled patty) and the other is a pub style burger (i.e. large, grilled/broiled patty), and that you much prefer one to the other.

Would it be ideal to have tasted both? Sure. But that doesn't mean one can't still form a reasonably informed opinion.
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