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chain stitch hemming - Page 4

post #46 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiya View Post
$15 for online bought jeans, $25 for jeans not bought from us.

just out of curiosity, would you hot soak the jeans before hemming for an online purchase, if requested?
post #47 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by whodini View Post
I still standby my vote for people not wasting their time tracking down a Union Special unless it's part of the service. You're not missing out on a damn thing.

Oh, I don't give a damn about having chain-stitched denim; I'd rather go with the more practical, stronger lockstitch. I'm just a machine-whore.
post #48 of 65
i know exactly what chain stitching is however i don't understand why it is so difficult to find someone who does them. ( i've looked and asked all over Boston and have concluded that no one here does it or even understand what I'm asking).

this is the reasoning for my confusion: looking at all my other pairs of non japanese/selvedge and even my express jeans from my high school years, I found some form of chain stitching on all of them especially on the inseam and the waist band.

here is a photo of my John Varvartos:



these jeans did not originally come with a chain stitched hem.

i'm pretty sure that if you look into your own jeans, you'd find some form of chain stitching.

so why is it so difficult to find someone with this machine?
post #49 of 65
Because the machine uses more thread, is more fragile (from what I've read...), and produces a considerably weaker seam. There's no advantage to using it nowadays, other than sentimental/repro reasons. Though one thing I've noticed from altering a lot of pants is the fact that many manufacturers use a 5-thread serger for the outseam, which produces a chainstitched seam with a 3-thread overlock to seal the seam. And these seams have no problems with busted seams, apparently. I would hypothesize that this is due to a strong thread being used on the chainstitch...
post #50 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by whodini View Post
Yes, that was me. Don't remember where the post is but I have plenty of non-chainstitched jeans as well as chainstitched jeans that have roping. It has to do with how the fabric is slightly twisted when stitched.

I still standby my vote for people not wasting their time tracking down a Union Special unless it's part of the service. You're not missing out on a damn thing.

I agree. The main cause of roping does seem to be caused by the hem being slightly twisted or shifted while being stitched. The tough part is, how do you convey this to a tailor? How could you even get the hem to do that on purpose?

I also personally like to get my hemming done before any soaking. In my limited experience it seems to work better when the denim gets to shrink up after it's been hemmed. YMMV though.
post #51 of 65
Chainstitching - more correctly, a double lock chainstitch - is a fascinating part of the construction of jeans; it changed the look of them when it appeared in the 30s, and even the way it sets up internal tensions changes the textures; they are also more powerful than predecessors like the Singer, and could stitch through heavy fabric more easily. As for the hem itself, this can look different with different machines - even the form of foot you use on a Union Special will change the look - the Union Speical doesn't fold a hem, it rolls it. It's a completely different look which is obvious from several yards away - this is why my nipper's chainstitched H&Ms, while they look perfectly fine, don't have the same look as a pair of Levi's or SDA. It's great that more people are looking out Union Specials and preserving them. There's no positive argument I can see on this thread in favour of shortening a classic jean using a standard hem - only the negative one, that it's cheaper. Which seems strange on a board which in general obsesses over details. Hence it would be good to have even more Union Specials around; reduced prices would help eliminate this argument. There's great information on the hem, and other chainstitches here: http://www.superfuture.com/supertalk...ad.php?t=10933 It's really worth googling superfuture for Ande Whall's exploration of the modern machines which give the right look and explanation of the stitch types. Unfortunately, cheapre machines don't apply enough tension. Modern double lock chainstitch machines or fittings which give this look are also expensive, unfortunately, and I'm not aware of any that roll the hem. (The single lock chainstitch is more common, is available on many sewing machines and gives a completely different effect as well as unthreading much more easily.) Mizanation's step by step guide to making a pair of jeans is terrific, but sadly the photos have gone: http://www.superfuture.com/supertalk...149004&page=10. Admittedly, this is only a question of detail. But it's a vital detail. If you want to save the $10 - cuff your jeans!
Quote:
Originally Posted by zk4025 View Post
自己接觸、操作修改牛仔褲褲腳已經有幾年的時間 一直以來都想著要能將這個部位經過修改後能達到理想的狀態 近一年多以來為了讓褲腳車縫處顯得較有厚實感 所以捨棄了多數修改者慣用且方便的三折方式(三層布料車縫) 花了不少的時間練習與調整手法改用目前的四折方式(四層布料車縫) 四折的方式在這一年多以來當有人拿已經穿過一段時日的褲子 或者較軟的布料褲子來修改時其實在修改的車縫後鎖鏈車線造成的效果 完全不輸給三折車法所能表現出的成效 但是當遇到尚未去漿、水洗的較厚實布料時確讓我一直都不甚滿意 上兩張照片就是之前以14.75 oz 的超紮實布料折成四折後修改車縫,再經過使用之後的效果 其實並不能達到自己完全滿意的狀態 幾天前在和MOBY聊天時偶然發現MOBY身上穿的褲子褲腳經過修改後(由其他人修改) 同樣經過一段時間穿著使用後褲腳的皺摺效果比起上面兩張照片中更明顯得多 雖然我不清楚修改者是以三折的方式或者四折的方式去操作修改的動作 但是我卻發覺這一年多以來自己為了希望讓褲腳經過修改的車縫後有厚實的近圓柱狀效果 而忽略掉經過鎖鏈車線縮水,將布料拉起的皺摺其實效果也變得較差一些 仔細的反省自己後決定一定要努力克服這樣的狀況 接下來花了三天的時間將機器仔細的重新反覆測試、調整 也使用多種不同車線的組合並配合各種不同調整方式以及布料的厚度去重新修正 一定要在四層布料的狀態下除了有圓柱狀的效果外車線將布料拉起的皺摺也能達到滿意的效果 所謂皺摺能到滿意的效果就是布料的皺摺是延著褲腳圓柱狀的邊緣呈現接近螺旋狀的明顯皺摺 (類似最上方的圖一所示) 當然這樣的效果在三折(三層)布料上很容易表現出來 但是四折(四層)布料卻是困難了不少 最後終於達到自己要求的標準了 就是這樣整圈立體又狹長的皺摺 側面看起來的效果 再從不同的角度去看 以上幾張原色褲的褲腳是用全新的14.75 oz 布料去測試所得到的效果 (Real McCOY'S S613XH) 接下來再將之前已經修改過並且已經穿過的褲子車線拆掉重新車縫
post #52 of 65
Finaly! Thank you! The chainstitching on your new japanese jeans = double lockstitching Now we can finaly close this thread. Hooray!
post #53 of 65
ande hand rolls his hems i believe. don't quite know what that means, but hopefully he can jump in on the convo. he had a regular lock stitch, went to chainstitch, then for some reason (i'm sure it's good) went back to non-chainstitch on his new jeans. I have a pair of old lockstitch and a pair of chainstitched one, the roping thus far on the old lockstitch ones is phenomenal, only issue is it isn't quite a uniform "roping" if that makes sense.
post #54 of 65
Thanks, Poly. I know Ande Whall was very helpful to The Clerk/Department OF Works, who managed to secure a Union Special for a chunky but not crazy price.

I should point out that it would be silly to argue that a Union SPecials-style chainstich is superior - more accurately, it's distinctive: a big part of the look of some jeans. Hence it makes sense to keep that look if you shorten those jeans. But that's no reason to look down yer schnozzer at jeans that are made without a Union Special.
post #55 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
just out of curiosity, would you hot soak the jeans before hemming for an online purchase, if requested?
When I'm certain of the inseam length that works best for a certain cut/make, I'll always hem first. The logic of that is because seams and stitching all tighten up once soaked, and you get the beginnings of roping on most hems as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pablo-T View Post
Thanks, Poly. I know Ande Whall was very helpful to The Clerk/Department OF Works, who managed to secure a Union Special for a chunky but not crazy price. I should point out that it would be silly to argue that a Union SPecials-style chainstich is superior - more accurately, it's distinctive: a big part of the look of some jeans. Hence it makes sense to keep that look if you shorten those jeans. But that's no reason to look down yer schnozzer at jeans that are made without a Union Special.
That's really the most important point made in this debate. Thanks for that essay on the aspects of the Union Special and subtleties of single vs. double, etc. One of the most informative things I've read in a long time. Would rep if I could ;-)
post #56 of 65
nice pics!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pablo-T View Post
Chainstitching - more correctly, a double lock chainstitch - is a fascinating part of the construction of jeans; it changed the look of them when it appeared in the 30s, and even the way it sets up internal tensions changes the textures; they are also more powerful than predecessors like the Singer, and could stitch through heavy fabric more easily. As for the hem itself, this can look different with different machines - even the form of foot you use on a Union Special will change the look - the Union Speical doesn't fold a hem, it rolls it. It's a completely different look which is obvious from several yards away - this is why my nipper's chainstitched H&Ms, while they look perfectly fine, don't have the same look as a pair of Levi's or SDA.

It's great that more people are looking out Union Specials and preserving them. There's no positive argument I can see on this thread in favour of shortening a classic jean using a standard hem - only the negative one, that it's cheaper. Which seems strange on a board which in general obsesses over details. Hence it would be good to have even more Union Specials around; reduced prices would help eliminate this argument.

There's great information on the hem, and other chainstitches here:

http://www.superfuture.com/supertalk...ad.php?t=10933

It's really worth googling superfuture for Ande Whall's exploration of the modern machines which give the right look and explanation of the stitch types. Unfortunately, cheapre machines don't apply enough tension. Modern double lock chainstitch machines or fittings which give this look are also expensive, unfortunately, and I'm not aware of any that roll the hem. (The single lock chainstitch is more common, is available on many sewing machines and gives a completely different effect as well as unthreading much more easily.)

Mizanation's step by step guide to making a pair of jeans is terrific, but sadly the photos have gone:
http://www.superfuture.com/supertalk...149004&page=10.

Admittedly, this is only a question of detail. But it's a vital detail. If you want to save the $10 - cuff your jeans!
post #57 of 65
Sorry for the old thread bump. Lots of good information here regarding hem roping and chain-stitching. However, does all this information apply only to raw denim that has a considerable amount of shrinkage left in them? If I were to hem black, non-distressed, pre-shrunk jeans, is it possible to restore some of the roping/rippling of the hem after a few cycles in the washer and dryer, despite the jeans not being raw or chain-stitched? I'm thinking that 100% cotton, high tension top-stitching for the regular hem plus some time in the dryer might help restore the slight rippling of the hem. TIA
post #58 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Froosh View Post
Sorry for the old thread bump. Lots of good information here regarding hem roping and chain-stitching. However, does all this information apply only to raw denim that has a considerable amount of shrinkage left in them?

If I were to hem black, non-distressed, pre-shrunk jeans, is it possible to restore some of the roping/rippling of the hem after a few cycles in the washer and dryer, despite the jeans not being raw or chain-stitched? I'm thinking that 100% cotton, high tension top-stitching for the regular hem plus some time in the dryer might help restore the slight rippling of the hem.

TIA

Yes, there will be roping after repeated washing and drying, even with preshrunk jeans and without a chainstitch. It might not look as nice as a chainstitched hem, but it will work.
post #59 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorewheeler View Post
Yes, there will be roping after repeated washing and drying, even with preshrunk jeans and without a chainstitch. It might not look as nice as a chainstitched hem, but it will work.

Thanks commodore, is this from personal experience? What's the purpose of the chain-stitch other than for appearance? Or does chain-stitching create even more roping?
post #60 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Froosh View Post
Thanks commodore, is this from personal experience? What's the purpose of the chain-stitch other than for appearance? Or does chain-stitching create even more roping?

Yes, this is from personal experience. I have a 9-year-old pair of raw selvage Daniel Cleary jeans that have good roping with a lock stitch hem. I didn't know anything about raw denim, chainstitch hems, high contrast fades, dealing with shrinkage and stretch (these are unsanforized), or how to take proper care of them back when I got these. I just wore them a lot and washed them a lot. Many of my mistakes from then showed up on these jeans and are still visible, but I didn't hem until after the first or second wash, and the roping is still pretty pronounced.

All that being said, I've still typically gotten better roping with a chainstitch hem than with a lock stitch hem, in my experience.
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