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What does one do with an afternoon off and only one tin of neutral shoe polish? - Page 2

post #16 of 74
the first picture in the thread is self explanatory.
it looks like it had a hard life.
post #17 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post
the first picture in the thread is self explanatory.
it looks like it had a hard life.

k.

no pun intended, as i said, i'll ask an expert. fair?
post #18 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Insight View Post
Where does one find Real Life friends who appreciate the finer nuances of shoe polishing?

The Marines.
post #19 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post
what happened to the leather?

just pmed the leather expert...
post #20 of 74
...and here's the answer. certainly in our mother tongue.

i'll try to pick out the essential statements without destroying the context and their neutral character:

naja also über ein Foto eine Lederqualität zu beurteilen ist sehr schwierig und meiner Meinung nach nicht richtig - Leder muss man immer angreifen und persönlich betrachten können.

Dass die Fallten eventuell kein gutes Zeichen sind - ja dies ist zum Teil richtig, da die falten davon zeugen, dass die Haut an dieser Stelle schon etwas ausgeleiert ist. Das heißt entweder das tier bereits etwas älter war - kein Kalb mehr, oder zumindest bereits ein Mastkalb oder Kalbine.
Oder/und dass für diesen Teil des Schuhes einfach ein Randstück der Lederhaut verwendet wurde. Diese sind meist auch nicht so straff und haben bereits Fallten oder bilden welche wenn Sie verarbeitet werden.

Das heißt man kann sagen die Lederhaut war evetuell etwas günstiger weil eben kein Milchkalb oder der Schuhmeister wollte "sparen" und auch das randstück noch verarbeiten.

Allerdings wird der Schuh dadurch nicht weniger wiederstandsfähig sein. Es sieht einfach etwas anders aus was in unserer Gesellscahft einfach nicht so erwünscht ist.

Hoffe ich konnte dir weiterhelfen

___________________________________________________________________

hmmh, to judge the quality from a picture is difficult and imho not correct.

that the wrinkles are a bad sign is partial correct. it just shows, that this part has been stressed.

it's not an indicator for the resistance of the said shoe. it just adds a different look, which is not welcomed in our social circles.

hope i could be of help.
___________________________________________________________________
post #21 of 74
interesting answer fritz.

although it is true that you cannot fully assess the quality of leather from pictures alone, you can glean some information.

you yourself do the same in the cleverley topic saying that poor quality leather creases differently and that the leather looked nice because it built up a patina....

from the op's photo, the leather looks quite 'stressed' or as i said 'had a hard life'.. but op states the shoes are new old stock (10yrs). it also looks 'dry' on the untreated shoe.

the wrinkling reminds me of thin vitello
post #22 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post
the wrinkling reminds me of thin vitello

good point

i've handled the shoes myself. the ten years are just an estimation, i think it's less, anyway.

forget the cleverley thing. i gave lm a hard time. that's all... ...i was in the mood.

though, my statement with the different creasing of "cheap" leather stands.

another observation. you can use only the so called "best" parts from a hide or you can use the whole thing. this is independable from the original quality of the hide.

op's shoes are soft like a glove. they are amazing irl.

the polishing thing was an experiment for "operation paprika". no more or less.

with a grain of salt: so everyone, who is up for a black wingtip on a sleek last in size EU 45 should pick the sibling. unfortunately they don't fit me in the width. forget your social borders and treat yourself with an unique masterpiece let's hug it out
post #23 of 74
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post
that is a nice restoration job on the shoe, and polish on the toe is striking.
have you tried using saphir's leather restorer on the upper to try to eliminate the excessive creasing?
i like the peg work on the sole, where did you find the shoe?
As already said, I would have treated the shoe differently if I had had access to the products I am normally using.
The shoe is a NOS pair from hungarian master shoemaker Gyula Kiss, whose shoes fritzl and I offer in the B&S or upon request by PM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voxsartoria View Post
Very nice, Sterling.


- B
Thank you, B.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post
o_O
those were new shoes?? what happened to the leather??

anyway nice pegs
The shoes were new, technically speaking, but lay around in the shoemaker's atelier for years and therefore had to take some stains and dust. You wouldn't want to see the pictures from the cleaning and soaking...

--

As for the wearing and resulting cracks in the polish: I can live with that. I actually like the effect of lighter and darker creases in the shoe being highlighted by a spit shine. I have never understood a half-polished shoe (i.e. only toebox and heel). To me, this always looks unfinished or as if the person who polsihed the shoe was too lazy or incompetent to make the quarters shine as much as the toe (where a high shine is actually very easy to achieve).

BTW, these shoes have a twin pair from the same last, finished as a fulbrogue derby in black calf.
post #24 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzl View Post
......
another observation. you can use only the so called "best" parts from a hide or you can use the whole thing. this is independable from the original quality of the hide.

op's shoes are soft like a glove. they are amazing irl.

the polishing thing was an experiment for "operation paprika". no more or less.
.....

if the shoes were made of a similar grade leather as the thin vitellos i do not doubt that the shoe will be soft, although i personally would not have chosen that leather for this type of shoe due to its thiness and propensity for creasing. maybe for a moccassin.

i do not understand what you mean by only using the best part of a hide or using the whole hide. are you implying the maker had no choice but to use the entire skin?

Sterling: do you find the wax cracking on the creases? that is one reason why not many spitshine/higloss the entire shoe.
post #25 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post
if the shoes were made of a similar grade leather as the thin vitellos i do not doubt that the shoe will be soft, although i personally would not have chosen that leather for this type of shoe due to its thiness and propensity for creasing. maybe for a moccassin.

prolog: when i visited the warehouse of "my" leather expert. wholesale and production since three generations. i tended to fail in what qualifies leather for shoes - rtw or bespoke, doesn't matter in this case.

ok, since english is not my mother tongue, my "schmäh"(wit, is closest) is lost in translation.

the shoe is made of best french calf you can buy for money and best knowledge the austrian hungarian school offers. due this is a siblings pair, during the making process(this is just a guess) mr. kiss realized, the good parts are not enough(see below) for a sibling. so he deceided(another guess) to use the so called stressed parts of the hide on the quarters. got it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post
i do not understand what you mean by only using the best part of a hide or using the whole hide. are you implying the maker had no choice but to use the entire skin?

your shirt/suit making knowledge is my shoe passion. i dunno understand most things/terms in tailoring.

a hide is divided in at least into four parts, given from the anatomy of a calf/kalbine(older than one year) and a cow.

all parts are qualified/approved to make a proper pair of shoes. this is also part of the adventurous journey of bespoke.

scenario: you choose from a virgin hide - all set

you are at the atelier and catches a glimpse of a hide. i.e. it's a small piece including imperfections.

ask yourself? are you going for it, or do you pass on it?

from my personal experience, there's nothing worse than a "chance", you didn't get a hold of.
post #26 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzl View Post
...
the shoe is made of best french calf you can buy for money and best knowledge the austrian hungarian school offers. due this is a siblings pair, during the making process(this is just a guess) mr. kiss realized, the good parts are not enough(see below) for a sibling. so he deceided(another guess) to use the so called stressed parts of the hide on the quarters. got it?

a lot suppositions there fritz; from the quality of the skin to the makeing of the shoe.
but if i follow your reasoning, there were two pairs made from one skin, but due to the way the skin was cut for the first pair, the second pair had to use pieces from the less desirable parts of the hide, is that correct? 2 pairs from one hide


Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzl View Post
...
a hide is divided in at least into four parts, given from the anatomy of a calf/kalbine(older than one year) and a cow.

all parts are qualified/approved to make a proper pair of shoes. this is also part of the adventurous journey of bespoke.

scenario: you choose from a virgin hide - all set

you are at the atelier and catches a glimpse of a hide. i.e. it's a small piece including imperfections.

ask yourself? are you going for it, or do you pass on it?

from my personal experience, there's nothing worse than a "chance", you didn't get a hold of.

thank you for describing the way the hide is partitioned for making shoes. i know this already. i also know that some parts of the skin are 'better' than other parts.

in your scenario, i would not have opted for the defective piece because the defect will mar the final product that i will be wearing.
post #27 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post
a lot suppositions there fritz;

it's fritzl, the l is important and i'm fine...

i'm just not used, that i can have a fair/nice conversation with you.

i have let the part open, which would be your decision. it's still up to you and am sure you have your sources for your orders. fine, fine, fine

my conclusion: people like you and me, who have taken part on various bespoke experiences, don't have to agree about their personal preferences, but have some common feelings about the whole thing.

for the op: sterling found, and i can tell ya, by chance a pair he loves. meanwhile he is participating in "operation paprika" in a way i never thought of and this means a lot to me. perfect match comes to my mind.

let me be honest:

this pair is "way better" than his first pair. so he is on the learning curve, what he really wants.

let me know, what you think about this...
post #28 of 74
Thread Starter 
T4phage, I honestly don't know how or when the second pair of this (obviously connected) order was made. fritzl knows far more about the leathers used by Mr. Kiss than I do. All I can say is that the leather for the shoe in these pictures is neither thin nor brittle "” au contraire: It is buttery smooth, thick and has a lifely texture. What might come across as defective parts could simply be the more natural condition of the hide. If you look closely, you will see the leather is not as sealed as modern leathers would be. I won't go as far as to say that it is impossible to obtain such qualities in leather today, but I imagine one would have to look hard for it.
post #29 of 74
I don't want to enter the discussion whether that problems with excessive creasing (which all shoes of Mr Kiss seem to have) is due to poor leather quality, sloppy lasting (not pulled tightly enough) or inadequate storage of the shoes over all those years (too damp, too dry, too hot, whatever). I haven't seen or handled the shoes, so I have no firm opinion one way or the other.

But let me clear up, why the same hide has different qualities of leather within. (fritzl's description is a bit too "˜purple-prosed' for me).

Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzl View Post
a hide is divided in at least into four parts, given from the anatomy of a calf/kalbine(older than one year) and a cow.

all parts are qualified/approved to make a proper pair of shoes. this is also part of the adventurous journey of bespoke.

scenario: you choose from a virgin hide - all set

you are at the atelier and catches a glimpse of a hide. i.e. it's a small piece including imperfections.

ask yourself? are you going for it, or do you pass on it?

from my personal experience, there's nothing worse than a "chance", you didn't get a hold of.

When you buy hides, all tanneries will supply the same leather in three different qualities, based on the number of flaws within a particular hide. Even the fist quality is not without any flaws, but of course has far less than the third quality. All hides, be they first or third quality, have the same natural characteristics that the leather in certain sections of the animal is better than in other sections.



The best leather comes from the butt and the very best leather is cut near the spine of the animal. When you go further up into the shoulder, the leather is still firm and strong, but has increasing "˜growth' (stretch marks where the animal grew too quickly, resulting in light long lines within the skin). Once you go higher up into the neck, the leather gets more unpredictable, there might be firm spots sitting next to flabby, loose ones. The same thing applies to the belly, the further out you cut the lesser the leather quality.

It depends on the quality of work you want to produce, how much leather will end up on the "˜clicking' (cutting) room floor. For low-priced work you try to use almost any scrap, for high-priced work, you only go for the very best sections; that means you might get only one or two pairs out of a skin, opposed to four or five. In cheaper work you also try to hide the defects of loose leather texture by gluing a fabric onto the back to give the leather a firmer handle.

It is also important, that a particular pair of shoes has all it's pieces cut from the same skin. That is virtually always the case in bespoke (or one-offs), but not necessarily in large factories, where very often the cutting is done by "˜cookie-cutters'. (You cut all the toe caps out of one hide and all the vamps from another hide, That saves changing the cutting forms all the time.
post #30 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post
I don't want to enter the discussion whether that problems with excessive creasing (which all shoes of Mr Kiss seem to have) is due to poor leather quality, sloppy lasting (not pulled tightly enough) or inadequate storage of the shoes over all those years (too damp, too dry, too hot, whatever). I haven't seen or handled the shoes, so I have no firm opinion one way or the other.

you entered. k.

as much i like your theory knowledge, i am glad you provide it to the average joe. thank you for that.
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