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Poll: Attolini vs. Rubinacci vs. Steed - Page 18

post #256 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
My guess is that some of a tailor's favorite clients are the ones that really appreciate the craft, want to learn as much as possible about it, and understand what makes his particular work special. In contrast, I imagine the absolute worst clients are the ones who think they know the craft and direct the tailor as if he was a mere technician.

Lastly, I suppose it can be very difficult to discern between the two.

Do I have it right?

Pretty much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
.while wearing-in may not fix a fundamentally loose collar, could it at least make a collar hug the neck more consistently?
depends why the collar was sitting away in the first place. Bt why should you accept a bespoke product which is supposed to be the summum, which isn't correct on delivery?
post #257 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
+100 Also, I don't understand the rush to trust whatever a tailor or merchant says on the forums. Part of the reason this forum has worked for so long is that it makes would-be clients and customers more informed. Someone who's got something to sell or a professional reputation to uphold is not without motive to mislead. That's why I value posts by people like Despos and jefferyd: they don't merely rest on their status as tailors to convince. Rather, they provide substantive explanations. Even if you don't ultimately agree, you have something to think about and there is fruit for discussion. In contrast, I have very little respect for certain individuals who use, as you say, "credentialism" to make a point. It's odd to me that George doesn't find that patronizing and pretentious.
I have no problem with people discussing tailoring, as the saying goes 'you don't have to be a cabinet maker to appreciate the cabinet'. But, when the conversation moves into the technical aspects of the craft, then I think it's valid to bring up the issues of qualifications and experience, more so experience, especially when someone is adopting an authoritative tone. I don't understand your last point, as the wine as kicked in.
post #258 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
I have no problem with people discussing tailoring, as the saying goes 'you don't have to be a cabinet maker to appreciate the cabinet'. But, when the conversation moves into the technical aspects of the craft, then I think it's valid to bring up the issues of qualifications and experience, more so experience, especially when someone is adopting an authoritative tone.

"Authoritative tone" is just another way of saying "I don't like that poster."

As to the rest, you were doing a lot more than merely "bringing up" the poster's "qualifications and experience"; you flatly said that he should not be posting that information at all.

But still it's nice to see you climb back from that limb.
post #259 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
For example, while wearing-in may not fix a fundamentally loose collar, could it at least make a collar hug the neck more consistently?

Very interested to get jefferyd's take. From his responses to my inquiries so far, I am guessing that his answer will be that a jacket will hug the neck a year later only as well as it hugged the neck when you walked out of the shop, but there also could be some nuance. My big take-away so far has been that if the jacket does not look exactly like you want it to while you're at the shop, don't leave until your tailor gets it right, because no problem will fix itself.
post #260 of 301
He beat me to it!
post #261 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post
"Authoritative tone" is just another way of saying "I don't like that poster."
No, it is not. What makes you think I don't like the poster?
post #262 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
No, it is not.

What makes you think I don't like the poster?

The fact that you attacked his post for unreasonable reasons, for starters.

I've been around long enough to hear the "authoritative" complaint many times. It's meaningless. It's like the trope "trying too hard" when criticizing an outfit. It's what people say when they want to bitch but have nothing substantive to add.

Most of us don't qualify every declarative sentence with "As far as I know ..." or "If I am not mistaken ..." and the like. We say what we want to say. Calling that "authoritative" is just bilge.
post #263 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefferyd View Post
depends why the collar was sitting away in the first place. Bt why should you accept a bespoke product which is supposed to be the summum, which isn't correct on delivery?

Let me re-word: it seems that a collar of stiffer cloth may be fit properly such that it hugs the neck when the wearer is standing upright and not moving, but may gape some as he shifts about until the cloth softens up. I noticed this with my Thornproof jacket. All my other jackets hug my neck across a wide range of movement, and the Thornproof started out hugging tightly and sitting right when I just stood still. However, it took several wearings before it would stay put while gesturing wildly with my arms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
I have no problem with people discussing tailoring, as the saying goes 'you don't have to be a cabinet maker to appreciate the cabinet'. But, when the conversation moves into the technical aspects of the craft, then I think it's valid to bring up the issues of qualifications and experience, more so experience, especially when someone is adopting an authoritative tone.

But tailoring is largely technical. It's hard to imagine a meaningful discussion about tailoring that doesn't at least touch on some technical aspects of the craft. Moreover, it's not as if everything every tailor says can be trusted, as I pointed out. They can be wrong or have mixed motives. On top of that, there aren't exactly heaps and heaps of tailors jumping in to educate the forum. We've got, what, two? As consumers, that presents a gap that needs filling.
post #264 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
However, it took several wearings before it would stay put while gesturing wildly with my arms.
Perhaps. But if you're gesturing wildly, who the hell is looking at your collar anyway?
post #265 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefferyd View Post
Perhaps. But if you're gesturing wildly, who the hell is looking at your collar anyway?

Everyone if I'm gesturing to show how well my collar fits.
post #266 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
But tailoring is largely technical. It's hard to imagine a meaningful discussion about tailoring that doesn't at least touch on some technical aspects of the craft. Moreover, it's not as if everything every tailor says can be trusted, as I pointed out. They can be wrong or have mixed motives. On top of that, there aren't exactly heaps and heaps of tailors jumping in to educate the forum. We've got, what, two? As consumers, that presents a gap that needs filling.
Well, when I say technical aspects I should have said the more technical aspects like construction etc. as I did in earlier post. I have nothing against criticising fit, as I have myself on ocassion but I'm less critical than most. I think several on here are a bit too fussy at times
post #267 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post
The fact that you attacked his post for unreasonable reasons, for starters. I've been around long enough to hear the "authoritative" complaint many times. It's meaningless. It's like the trope "trying too hard" when criticizing an outfit. It's what people say when they want to bitch but have nothing substantive to add. Most of us don't qualify every declarative sentence with "As far as I know ..." or "If I am not mistaken ..." and the like. We say what we want to say. Calling that "authoritative" is just bilge.
Eh? have you read some of your posts when you've launched into someone? Does it mean that you don't like them? Of course not. Why is everything always so personal with you? authoritative: adj 1 accepted as a reliable source of knowledge. I think the use of that word in that context isn't unreasonable.
post #268 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
Well, when I say technical aspects I should have said the more technical aspects like construction etc. as I did in earlier post.

I have nothing against criticising fit, as I have myself on ocassion but I'm less critical than most. I think several on here are a bit too fussy at times

But what is wrong with discussing the possible technical causes of fit problems? An experienced bespoke client can have some very valuable insights to consider and raise with your tailor--just as when you hear about a friend's medication working very for the condition he shares with you and you ask your doctor about it. Nobody said you have to take what tutee shared as gospel, certainly not tutee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
I think the use of that word in that context isn't unreasonable.

I think it is. I hate having to preface every damned thing I say with "I think" or "I feel" (*shudder*) because people feign themselves so stupid as to not understand I can only offer my own opinion or perspective to begin with. There is only a problem when someone--tailor or non-tailor--calls upon his authority to usurp discussion or summarily dispose of contrasting ideas. Tutee didn't do that. If you ask me, the tailors and other artisans who do are the truly bad elements.
post #269 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
Eh? have you read some of your posts when you've launched into someone? Does it mean that you don't like them? Of course not. Why is everything always so personal with you?

authoritative: adj 1 accepted as a reliable source of knowledge.

I think the use of that word in that context isn't unreasonable.
Do you think tutee thinks he is the last word on everything he posted? If so, you are daft.

However, tutee certainly does believe that what he posted is correct, or else he would not have bothered. Every time someone posts correct information, they are not trying to be authoritative. You may as well say that about 70% of the posts on this forum otherwise. Calling it "authoritative" is just another way of expressing disapproval. I.e., pretension, "This purports to be authoritative but of course is not because he does not have right certificate on the wall."

Again, the only thing that matters is whether it is correct. I know what tourne is and is supposed to look like even if I can't cut veg perfectly every time. I could explain how to do it and what it looks like in detail. You would dismiss that as pretentiously authoritative, but I would still be right.
post #270 of 301
Who are these shitty, opinionated, obnoxious bespoke tailors everyone (Foo) refers to? Obviously not Despos and jeffreyd but um...aren't they the only ones actively poasting these days, except for Ambrosi, who only poasts to tell everyone when he's (not) coming to the States? Darren Beaman used to post quite regularly all over the intranets before he combusted, but I haven't seen him recently. Can't think of anyone else, but might as well name them, so we have a reference point. Carl Goldberg is pretty "in your face" but - with all due respect - anything less from a crotchety old Jewish tailor and you'd feel cheated.
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