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Poll: Attolini vs. Rubinacci vs. Steed - Page 9

post #121 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montesquieu View Post
I relied on the tailors' judgment for fit.

Ideally your experiences would eventually evolve into a combination of what the tailor sees, and what you see.

Even better is if, once evolved, what you see and what he/she sees are nearly the same.

The one way street maybe good initially, but one would hope that you aren't spread so thin with variety such that your own sense of what fits or stylistically should be does not develop.

Don't want to be a Jack of many trades but Master of none . . .

- M
post #122 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmkn View Post
Ideally your experiences would eventually evolve into a combination of what the tailor sees, and what you see.

Even better is if, once evolved, what you see and what he/she sees are nearly the same.

The one way street maybe good initially, but one would hope that you aren't spread so thin with variety such that your own sense of what fits or stylistically should be does not develop.

Don't want to be a Jack of many trades but Master of none . . .

- M

I like to give a general idea and direction of what I want but the input of the cutter is also very important .

Their technical knowledge and understanding of fabrics, cuts ,silhouettes is paramount to my final decision.
post #123 of 301
I agree with : one doesn't need to the Internet or an expert standing by to get good results from bespoke, and that perhaps trying to digest 3 different tailors in 1 year might have been too much. And we have to remember that these are 2D photographs, so the result IRL may be quite different.

--Andre
post #124 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Y View Post
I agree with : one doesn't need to the Internet or an expert standing by to get good results from bespoke
[...]

Now, I'm curious. What does one need for bespoke success? Obviously it's not guaranteed given the countless bespoke (alleged) tragedies on this forum.
post #125 of 301
I agree that there may be more here than meets the internet eye.
To me, it's a sad state of affairs when the client needs to have enough experience/knowledge that he is expected to hold a competent tailor accountable to deliver a proper fit. That just seems wrong. I like an educated client but to a different end. The more he knows the better he can comprehend the results of the custom clothing process and appreciate the difference but not to direct a tailor at what he should be proficient.
Montesquieu,
Try Caraceni Milan and start a new thread.
post #126 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwoood View Post
Now, I'm curious. What does one need for bespoke success? Obviously it's not guaranteed given the countless bespoke (alleged) tragedies on this forum.
Some thoughts: 1. Get your expectations straight. Know the tailor's house style. Know the pitfalls of bespoke. Don't expect perfection immediately. 2. Pick the best tailor you can afford. Unless the difference is extreme, I'd go so far as to pick the better tailor than the one whose house style is closer to what I like. 3. Be clear about the garment you want, but don't bring a spec sheet. "I want a tweed odd jacket with patch pockets that buttons three-roll-two" is good. "Here is my CAD drawing of the lapel shape I'd like you to implement with millimeter precision" is not. Maybe the greatest lesson one can learn on StyleForum is how to describe a jacket by its basic components. 4. Take your time: order one garment before ordering more. Kinks will inevitably show up that neither you nor your tailor noticed before. 5. Manage the relationship, not the tailoring. Enthusiastically engage by asking questions and pointing things out, but don't instruct. The tailor has his way of doing things that he is comfortable with and proud of. Cross his ego and experience at your own hazard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Despos View Post
I agree that there may be more here than meets the internet eye. To me, it's a sad state of affairs when the client needs to have enough experience/knowledge that he is expected to hold a competent tailor accountable to deliver a proper fit. That just seems wrong. I like an educated client but to a different end. The more he knows the better he can comprehend the results of the custom clothing process and appreciate the difference but not to direct a tailor at what he should be proficient. Montesquieu, Try Caraceni Milan and start a new thread.
But hasn't he already tried a few very good tailors? With results like these, isn't the clear implication that it's not the tailors completely to blame? Moreover, it seems like none of the apparent problems are so bad they cannot at least be corrected on future orders. Montesquieu's error, in my book, was ordering so many garments in serial so quickly. Why not pick one of the three he's already used, and have them tweak a bit? Adding another world-renouned tailor to the mix will just force him to go through the same startup pains he's already gone through with the others.
post #127 of 301
Thanks for your response, Foo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
Some thoughts:
[...]
2. Pick the best tailor you can afford. Unless the difference is extreme, I'd go so far as to pick the better tailor than the one whose house style is closer to what I like.
[...]

Now, the question is, of course, how do you define "good" when it comes to tailors? how do you find "the best" ?
post #128 of 301
I like this conversation

Quote:
Originally Posted by maomao1980 View Post
We spent quite a bit of time discussing how to make the jacket for me. On areas where we agree for example, both Antonio and I wanted to cut the lapels wider, but for different reasons. He thinks the wide lapel helps to balance the wider chest, while for me, I wanted wide lapels to balance my wider face. We both wanted to have front and back drape for movement. We also had ideas the other did not think of, for example I made very specific requests to have no padding for the shoulders at all, and Antonio was very specific on where the button point should be, despite my initial doubt.

I think the input from both the customer and the tailor was able to make this a very personal commission. I still look like me in this jacket, and there is no mistake, from the details and execution, that this is a Liverano jacket as well.

from here.

- M
post #129 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
Do you see a marked difference between Attolini MTM and bespoke, or am the only one? The MTM has no shaping in the chest. It looks like they just took a RTW jacket and cut at the sides.

I realize that you love the 'pectoral bowl', but could this impression also not be caused (in part) by different fabrics/canvas in the different commissions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
There is nothing controversial about how exceedingly fantastic I look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
Well, nothing looks uncorrectable to me and I stand by my opinion that you don't need to be an expert to get good results from a good tailor. I knew as little as you did when I first started with Rubinacci.

Just stepping up for Monte (since you're making the direct comparison): while I will refrain from commenting on the former quote, I am not sure that (at least a number of) Monte's commissions came out worse than your Rubinacci commissions.
post #130 of 301
Gorgeous, gorgeous sport coats.
post #131 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montesquieu View Post
Was this meant condescendingly? I was and am still learning, and I trusted that tailors' fit judgment over my own. Given my three days experience in bespoke relative to their decades, this seemed prudent to me.

I doubt that I'm the only bespoke client who doesn't micromanage fit, especially when working with tailors in another language.

As a client of the great Neapolitan tailors, and a native Italian speaker, I can tell you going to get fitted by yourself (as I assume you did), not speaking Italian (as you note), and most likely giving off the impression you were a neophyte was probably not advantageous. With Italians (even famous bespoke tailors) giving them the impression that you know what you are talking about is KEY to getting proper service--it's their cultural mentality, and though they will not admit it, it runs too deep to be ignored. This is not so much the case in the UK. But it is a definite factor in Italy, unfortunately.
post #132 of 301
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
Some thoughts:

1. Get your expectations straight. Know the tailor's house style. Know the pitfalls of bespoke. Don't expect perfection immediately.

2. Pick the best tailor you can afford. Unless the difference is extreme, I'd go so far as to pick the better tailor than the one whose house style is closer to what I like.

3. Be clear about the garment you want, but don't bring a spec sheet. "I want a tweed odd jacket with patch pockets that buttons three-roll-two" is good. "Here is my CAD drawing of the lapel shape I'd like you to implement with millimeter precision" is not. Maybe the greatest lesson one can learn on StyleForum is how to describe a jacket by its basic components.

4. Take your time: order one garment before ordering more. Kinks will inevitably show up that neither you nor your tailor noticed before.

5. Manage the relationship, not the tailoring. Enthusiastically engage by asking questions and pointing things out, but don't instruct. The tailor has his way of doing things that he is comfortable with and proud of. Cross his ego and experience at your own hazard.

Great advice. I'm satisfied with how I followed #1-#3.

With respect to #4, I very consciously chose not to do this. Folks on SF have consistently said that it takes three or more progressive commissions to perfect a fit and pattern. I ordered all three Rubinaccis in one visit. I placed Attolini and Steed orders over a variety of visits, but oftentimes I'd order one while doing a first or second fitting of another; they weren't progressive. Why? I was caught up in the adventure of experimentation, enjoying the diversity of styles, in love with the fabrics, appreciating the experts with whom I interacted, and running short of time to replace everything before returning to the US, where nothing has ever fit me. So I'm left with kinks that, relative to what I had RTW, seem lovable in comparison. I'm sufficiently happy with all but one order. They express me well. Perfection may not yet have been reached, but it's proximity is close enough for happiness and far enough for motivation.

My regret is #5. As others have noted, there's a level of knowledge required to bring out the best in a tailor, and that is part of graduating from client to valued relationship. At work, I stretch and coach my team to achieve greatness. I didn't do that with my tailors, and they probably regard me as an enthusiastic but interchangeable client. Two years into this, I have a ways to go. I'm inspired by those who have achieved better fits from my same tailors, thanks to their personal expertise and cultivated relationships. Style is fun. I'd love to improve my partnerships another two notches.
post #133 of 301
[quote=EBugatti;3118139]As a client of the great Neapolitan tailors, and a native Italian speaker, I can tell you going to get fitted by yourself (as I assume you did), not speaking Italian (as you note), and most likely giving off the impression you were a neophyte was probably not advantageous. With Italians (even famous bespoke tailors) giving them the impression that you know what you are talking about is KEY to getting proper service--it's their cultural mentality, and though they will not admit it, it runs too deep to be ignored. This is not so much the case in the UK. But it is a definite factor in Italy, unfortunately.[/QUOTE

It is very very true...

If you speak Italian and show them you do know your tailoring basics ,they will have more respect for you and do a better job..

It is the same all around Italy..They think if you want an Italian look ,anything close to it will be sufficient for a non-connoisseur...

I always remember catching certain comments made by Rubinacci's staff in Italian about certain customers and it was quite revealing of a certain attitude...
post #134 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by lasbar View Post
I always remember catching certain comments made by Rubinacci's staff in Italian about certain customers and it was quite revealing of a certain attitude...

I hope no honorable mentions about certain SF customers...
post #135 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by maomao1980 View Post
I hope no honorable mentions about certain SF customers...

No comment...

I did not know them at the time ...

I just arrived on SF and Iammatt made such an interesting case for Rubinacci's garments that I decided to go to Mount street for my first bespoke suit.

I got more cosy with the two girls than with Luca or Mariano...
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