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The Tie Dimple Debate - Page 4

post #46 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Film_Noir_Buff
I dont think i was suggesting anything. You introduced manton's quote into a conversation about tie dimples. I wasn't sure if you were introducing it as authority or because it was confusing you. I simply am not sure why you placed it here.
Just to point out that an authority on style and dress (Manton) has indicated that there really is no "rule" on the dimple, and that knowledgeable and well-dressed men can differ in their opinions about its use. (This post was made near the beginning of the thread and after a number of posts suggesting that not to dimple was sartorially barbaric.)
post #47 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger
Just to point out that an authority on style and dress (Manton) has indicated that there really is no "rule" on the dimple, and that knowledgeable and well-dressed men can differ in their opinions about its use. (This post was made near the beginning of the thread and after a number of posts suggesting that not to dimple was sartorially barbaric.)

Point taken.

If youre the DOW, then not wearing a dimple is stylish. If youre doing it well after a long spell with the dimpled knot, then maybe youve moved to a new level of style. If youre doing it to be different, then youre my version of "contrived".

And if youre the millions upon millions of men who have no idea that you should be dimpling your tie, then the absence of a dimple is slovenly, if not barbaric.

So, if you want to impress that rare person in the know, lose the dimple. Itll work if everything else youre wearing is beautifully done

,
post #48 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Film_Noir_Buff
Point taken.
If youre the DOW, then not wearing a dimple is stylish. If youre doing it well after a long spell with the dimpled knot, then maybe youve moved to a new level of style. If youre doing it to be different, then youre my version of "contrived".

And if youre the millions upon millions of men who have no idea that you should be dimpling your tie, then the absence of a dimple is slovenly, if not barbaric.

So, if you want to impress that rare person in the know, lose the dimple. Itll work if everything else youre wearing is beautifully done.
Interesting analysis. Do you feel that a very well-tied half-Windsor or FIH knot in a tie that is not dimpled represents a slovenly presentation? It seems, from your "millions upon millions" paragraph, that not dimpling is barbaric simply because the wearer doesn't know about the dimple. But what if, while not knowing about it, he does a beautiful job with a lovely undimpled tie, and the rest of his ensemble is great? Is that man slovenly? What if you're a guy who knows what the dimple is and chooses to eschew it, all the while dressing very well in all respects? Is that contrived? Or if you're like many who, like Iammatt, go with the presentation that looks good when first tied, dimpled or otherwise? It seems as if losing the dimple would not cause too much harm by your reasoning since you have indicated that the rare person in the know might be impressed with this presentation and the millions upon millions of others in our world will never know that such a thing exists!
post #49 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger
Interesting analysis. Do you feel that a very well-tied half-Windsor or FIH knot in a tie that is not dimpled represents a slovenly presentation? It seems, from your "millions upon millions" paragraph, that not dimpling is barbaric simply because the wearer doesn't know about the dimple. But what if, while not knowing about it, he does a beautiful job with a lovely undimpled tie, and the rest of his ensemble is great? Is that man slovenly? What if you're a guy who knows what the dimple is and chooses to eschew it, all the while dressing very well in all respects? Is that contrived? Or if you're like many who, like Iammatt, go with the presentation that looks good when first tied, dimpled or otherwise? It seems as if losing the dimple would not cause too much harm by your reasoning since you have indicated that the rare person in the know might be impressed with this presentation and the millions upon millions of others in our world will never know that such a thing exists!

I thought we were discussing the merit of the advice gleaned from the paragraph from manton's book? I think it is poor advice to the general audience. First of all some may never have heard of a tie dimple, then it gets quickly dismissed as too studied. What would the average suit wearer get from that paragraph? Maybe he needed a chart on dimples and dimpleless knots?

I rarely see men tie their ties well, dimple or otherwise. Can someone tie their tie well without being in the know? Of course. I learned to do it with little more reference than my Dad's clumsy full windsor as an example. It worked on him, I dont like it. Plus with a 17.5 inch neck, lots of luck wrapping it around that many times without it ending at my sternum. Can the absence of a dimple work on people who never learned to tie ties? Of course, there are always exceptions.

I admit I find these "rules" tiresome, they seem to exist when they are convenient and then vanish just as quickly when they get in the way of including some advanced exceptions. You (all of us) should learn certain dress basics like dimpling your tie, then you can wear them any way you like. I have seen dimpleless ties worn well by the rare person. However, that paragraph only makes sense to someone who knows a lot about the world of tie tying. Now, why a book about the rules which I would imagine was for new entrants would give confusing advice about tie knots without demonstrations or further explanation is beyond me.

Lets pin the book down, does it speak to the "millions and millions" or does it speak to a handful? Until that's settled once and for all, how could i ever be expected to explain my take on its meaning?
post #50 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Film_Noir_Buff
Lets pin the book down, does it speak to the "millions and millions" or does it speak to a handful? Until that's settled once and for all, how could i ever be expected to explain my take on its meaning?

The book can be read and understood at its face value by the simple-minded. Those who are erudite will appreciate the brazen contradictions and the outright lies.
post #51 of 89
Dear Roger,

In respect to the foregoing repartee ..... ROFLMFAO!!!

And one short bit of advice:

You'll never be able to teach a pig to sing. To try to do so will only serve to frustrate you and severely annoy the pig.

Best, as always,
Alex
post #52 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by tattersall
The book can be read and understood at its face value by the simple-minded. Those who are erudite will appreciate the brazen contradictions and the outright lies.
The masses are never erudite.
post #53 of 89
I think that we're thinking way too hard on this subject. If you look good without the dimple, fine. If you do with, fine as well. We're reading way too much into this whole thing of knowing how to dimple or not, choosing to do so or eschewing it even if you know. Basically it all comes down to whether you tied a good knot or didn't. In Brandon Routh's case, for example, he didn't do a very good job. The absence of a dimple didn't look bad to me, it was just the general sloppiness. Now, many of you are quick to point out that dressing should be effortless. I agree. You should effortlessly be able to tie a good looking knot. Practice makes perfect.
post #54 of 89
[quote=Manton]You mean more like this?



/QUOTE]

That doesn't look like a silk tie. I have a few cashmere ties and wool ties that aren't able to dimple. I think that's the case in the photo above.
post #55 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger
Other authorities have weighed in in other arenas. Wear a dimple if you like it. Don't if you don't like it. There's no "rule" here, just personal preference.

What authorities?

Also, I don't think anyone is debating a "rule" on this. They just seem to be saying that it looks unsophistocated dimpleless.
post #56 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike C
That doesn't look like a silk tie. I have a few cashmere ties and wool ties that aren't able to dimple. I think that's the case in the photo above.
The scan is sort of grainy. Based on the original photo, I would say that it is clearly silk.
post #57 of 89
I don't really care much what the rules says. For me a tie just doesn't hang properly without the dimple. Don't like it at all. Personal preference.
post #58 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike C.
What authorities?
Those I have already mentioned: Manton, the Duke of Windsor, Michael Alden. I'm sure that if I took the time to look, I'd find others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike C.
Also, I don't think anyone is debating a "rule" on this. They just seem to be saying that it looks unsophistocated dimpleless.
You've misunderstood my point. It was simply to note that no rule actually exists wrt dimples in ties, and that the somewhat definitive assertions that began this thread might be seen as suggesting that there is a clearly correct position, and that is that ties must be dimpled, when in fact no such hard consensus exists. It does a disservice to those young guys starting out and trying to learn the fine points of style and dress to suggest that there is definitive agreement on this matter since they will then think that they must dimple their ties. The fact is that it is purely a matter of personal preference, and some undeniably authoritative, well-dressed, and knowledgeably stylish men choose to go dimpleless. That was all I intended to contribute to this thread. You and many others may think "that it looks unsophisticated dimpleless" (in which case you should dimple your ties), but let's all be clear that many others think differently, and they are not wrong; they merely have a different opinion about a subject that, in reality, permits both opinions under the rubric of good style and dress.
post #59 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by ......2
Where can I find out how to dimple a tie?

Forget about learning, just use"The Dimpler".

http://www.dimpler.com/
post #60 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike C.
What authorities?

Also, I don't think anyone is debating a "rule" on this. They just seem to be saying that it looks unsophistocated dimpleless.


In general this is true, a well done dimple is a sign of a natty dresser. I dont have a problem with the occasional dimpleless knot if it is done well like the Duke employed it, but I havent seen anyone els's version look good here.

The Duke also did his Charvet bowties up in that looser knot which I rather liked.
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