Bespoke: Expectations, Results, Reflection

Originally Posted by edmorel

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Ok, then to expand a bit more on my inquiry, you get an item in the house style, do you fret about button position (you'd prefer it higher/lower), lapel width etc etc. Is the house style enough for you, even if it comes up a bit "weak" in certain areas, relative to what you would like to see on you? If the house style calls for thinner lapels than you would prefer, do you change it?

Didn't you order something from Solito or Volpe? I don't think tweaking a lapel width or button position typically unravels a house style. When you get into things like the exact curvature of the lapel, the angle of the notch, radically different shoulder lines, etc., I think you're much more likely to cross the line.

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

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But aren't you? And is there anything wrong with that? Presumably you selected Rubinacci because you liked the look of it. There's no shame in that, and no lack of style. Not everyone needs to be Sator. I would think your approach is the wisest one when dealing with most tailors.
Well, yes, in a sense I am subjecting myself to a mould--but not in such a crude or exceptional way as suggested by many. In that same sense, anybody who sees a tailor is subjecting himself to a mould. Anyway, I'm primarily objecting to the criticism that trusting your tailor to handle things without fine instructions means you have surrendered your personal style.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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I believe I am an engaged client, but not an overwhelming or controlling one.
It's interesting to hear you put it that way.

After a recent project, the builder said to me ... "That was the most "engaged" client I've ever experienced. But I must admit ... not one request was unreasonable ... and never did she exert undue influence. Consequently I think this is my best work ever." I agreed with him ... we had both experienced the kind of client we hope to get.

It's a fine line ... as an architect I want them near it ... not too far away in either direction.

Originally Posted by RSS

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It's interesting to hear you put it that way. After a recent project, the builder said to me ... "That was the most "engaged" client I've ever experienced. But I must admit ... not one request was unreasonable ... and never did she exert undue influence. Consequently I think this is my best work ever." I agreed with him ... we had both experienced the kind of client we hope to get. It's a fine line ... as an architect I want them near it ... not too far away in either direction.
Contrary to what some have surmised, every artisan I've used has expressed great enthusiasm for the interest I take in their work and the effort I went through to log my experience online. I imagine it is simply more enjoyable to work with someone who respects and appreciates what you do.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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Well, yes, in a sense I am subjecting myself to a mould--but not in such a crude or exceptional way as suggested by many. In that same sense, anybody who sees a tailor is subjecting himself to a mould.

Anyway, I'm primarily objecting to the criticism that trusting your tailor to handle things without fine instructions means you have surrendered your personal style.

I don't know what personal style means here. It seems to me that one of the biggest benefits of Rubinacci is that they steer the overall picture a bit more than other tailors. Perhaps this is wrong, but if it's not I don't think a loss of personal style necessarily follows. I think anyone who looks at you, tehmatt and whnay will find that you each have your own style. It's incredibly difficult (and generally counterproductive) to micromanage the bespoke process and I think it makes sense for everyone (excepting maybe Manton) to get a bit of help. On reflection I would probably go a step further and say that someone who bought exclusively Tom Ford hadn't surrendered their personal style. Maybe this is just a result of what I think personal style means.

I'd be curious to hear about expectations, results and reflection from folks who haven't been happy with bespoke experience. For example, the A&S atrocity seemed to go through a process pretty similar to everyone posting here but ended up with a very different result.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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Didn't you order something from Solito or Volpe? I don't think tweaking a lapel width or button position typically unravels a house style. When you get into things like the exact curvature of the lapel, the angle of the notch, radically different shoulder lines, etc., I think you're much more likely to cross the line.

yes and the first order my instructions were "3 patch, 3roll2, big lapels, everything else, do what you do". First jacket came out about 1/2 too short for my taste. Second order, said "everything like the first, but longer jacket" Been happy since. I was just thinking that if I had just found this forum after ordering the stuff and perused some of the bespoke threads, I'd think that maybe I was missing something or not getting the most out of the tailor. I don't really know about cloths nor tailoring, at least not as well as others do, and some of those posts/threads would make it seem to the novice that bespoke is a very difficult process for the client. My experience is that it has been easier than RTW but I have been very hands off. This has worked for me and my enjoyment has come from the wearing of the garment, i could not tell you much about the specifics of how it is constructed or the quality of the wool but I also realize that this approach would not work for others that want/need to be more hands on and being "hands off" would probably lead them to not enjoy the garment as much, regardless of how good it fits/looks.

Originally Posted by edmorel

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Does anyone whom gets bespoke just specify the most basic of issues (patch versus besom, single versus side vents) and then let the tailor do what they do and end up happy?

Yes, I do that, especially with the tailor that has the more distinct house style. The other one that tends to be more flexible seems to need/want more guidance. Perhaps the whole disagreement over micromanagement depends more on the tailor's temperament than the client's OCDness.

Originally Posted by aportnoy

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Pussies. I get my sleeve pitch protractor calibrated by German astrophysicists.

Mine was what kept breaking the LHC.

--Andre

Originally Posted by A Y

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Mine was what kept breaking the LHC.

--Andre

I heard about that. The stuff of legends.

Originally Posted by edmorel

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others that want/need to be more hands on and being "hands off" would probably lead them to not enjoy the garment as much, regardless of how good it fits/looks.

Frankly, I think the biggest problem in this respect is StyleForum itself. Garments are so damned nitpicked to hell. For me, a guy who's just going into bespoke for the first time, I'm scared witless.

Originally Posted by Douglas

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Frankly, I think the biggest problem in this respect is StyleForum itself. Garments are so damned nitpicked to hell. For me, a guy who's just going into bespoke for the first time, I'm scared witless.

Truth of the matter is, there is nothing to fear as long as you don't start a thread asking for critique and telling everyone your garment is bespoke, lest you want the subject of your commission to be part of epicness. Bespoke is about enjoying the process and getting things you enjoy. Who cares if a forum member tells you the button positioning can be 1/2 inch lower or the lapels wider. The expert who made the suit for you didn't think so. Who are you going to believe, some dude looking at a couple of photos on the interwebz or your tailor?

Now of course, I am not discounting the value of input from forum members who have experience or strong opinions, so long as that is what you are looking for and want to be part of your bespoke experience. I think there are ranges of "accepatbility," and by soliciting opinions from the fvrum, you'll likely get comments that fall within the range, only to confuse you even more at what might be "correct."

Originally Posted by Douglas

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Frankly, I think the biggest problem in this respect is StyleForum itself. Garments are so damned nitpicked to hell. For me, a guy who's just going into bespoke for the first time, I'm scared witless.

the most important thing to remember is, when the proctologist is examining you, make sure that he does not have both of his hands on your shoulders.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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Thanks, this is a helpful way to organize discussion. 1. House-style and can it be replicated I think that every tailor imposes a certain style on his work, a result of unchangeable conditions such as his experience and personality. Thus, when two different tailors execute a checklist of the same requests for the same client, the result will be two superficially similar, but stylistically distinct, garments. The aesthetic differences may be minor, nuanced, and even unintended, but they will nonetheless be present. Some tailors call their developed style a "house style" and others don't. However, the important thing to note is that tailors have unique styles and those style are inescapable, whatever they call them. Thus, a client should not expect his tailor to be able to copy another's house style. You may be able to get him to do certain elements of that house style, but: you will inevitably fall short of capturing all the elements, his versions of those elements will be different in nuanced ways, and the elements may not combine together as in the house style. In short, there are a lot of very high hurdles that a tailor must leap over to replicate another tailor's work. Is it truly impossible? Well, I think it is so highly implausible that it might as well be impossible from the client's point-of-view when choosing a tailor. Chan is an interesting example and has been offered as proof that I am wrong. His clients, such as apropos, claim that Chan is "flexible" and can successfully employ the elements of others' house styles. However, it has also been admitted that, though Chan tailors may replicate all the elements of a house style, they cannot replicate a house style in its entirety. This means one of two things: Chan cannot actually replicate all the elements of a house style, or there is something more to a house style than the elements that can be easily listed or named. Either way, the result is the same: there is something different about the Chan version of X's house style. That difference reflects the style which the Chan tailor inputted to interpret the elements, fill in the gaps, combine them, etc. Whatever the flexibility touted by Chan, its tailors are not miracle workers. They each have a unique style, whether it is called a "house style" or not, which is naturally imposed to some degree on ever garment made and which prevents them from truly replicating other tailors' work. Another way to look at it is this: an investment of a tailor's time and energy in stylistic flexibility necessarily deprives from developing proficiency in specific styles. I hate to parrot myself, but: you can have more breadth, or more depth, but not both.
There are tailors who are able to interpret/copy a style created by another. Tailors employed within the couture industry are an obvious example. These tailors take the designers sketches and produce the garments from them. These tailors have to be very flexible. There are tailors here in England who specialise in making period costumes for T.V dramas. Cutters on Savile Row are a nomadic breed, moving from tailor to tailor, so they must be able to adopt to other cutting and house styles. Voxsartoria's tailor, was originally trained by Edward Sexton but went to work with A&S before branching out on his own. A&S is a completely different beast to the flamboyance of Sexton. Take a look at jefferyd'd blog and you'll see him making all kinds of shoulder treatments. He also made a drape cut which is radically different from the cut he likes to make. (correct me if I'm wrong jefferyd) Tailoring is a about technique, and is no different to any other craft in that regard. Can a cabinet maker only make one style of cabinet? Some choose to do just that, create a signature look, but that's comes from conscious choice, to have a definite style not a limitation of their skills.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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2. Impact of house-style on individuals and variation of house style execution The fall-out of the above for a client is that he should not expect complete stylistic control over the garments he orders from his tailor. No matter how thorough and specific a client's instructions, the tailor must execute large doses of discretion in executing them and taking care of things the client had not thought of. Each tailor will solve these problems differently, which leads to an unique, imposed style. I don't think there is an easy answer to how much a house style can be varied. A house style can be very limited in range, or very wide. It depends on the tailor. However, whatever the range, I think a client is better off finding a tailor with a range he is happy falling into rather than asking a tailor to step outside of it. After all, that range tends to reflect the tailor's expertise and comfort zone.
I think you're splitting hairs here. Of course each tailor will approach a 'problem' differently, but the end result may well be the same, or for all intents a purposes unnoticeable to the clients eye.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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3. Philosophy of bespeaking - one tailor or several tailors I don't think there is an absolute answer to whether one should use one or several tailors. However, I do think a client should consider that it takes an investment in the tailor-client relationship to optimize results from any tailor. The first order is typically the worst. Then, things improve order by order as the client and tailor learn more and more about each other. Thus, before trying out a new tailor, a client should ask himself whether it would be more worthwhile to invest more time with his existing ones instead. For me, it makes the most sense to stick with one tailor. Frankly, I do not have the finances to fund numerous orders with multiple tailors--I also don't want to invest the time.
I think this is reasonable.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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4. Value = Quality - Cost I think this equation holds true for all of us. The difference is what we individually mean by 'Quality'. Many don't care if their suits are overall Neapolitan in style, for example--they just want, say, spalla camicia. Well, there are many sources for that outside of Naples. However, I like garments with strong regional or historically unique identities. The romance of it alone is worth something to me. However, the same may not be true for others--in fact, others want their suits to be of unapparent origin. Nothing wrong with that.
This is the argument about the difference between cost and value.

Originally Posted by edmorel

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the most important thing to remember is, when the proctologist is examining you, make sure that he does not have both of his hands on your shoulders.
That was THE worst part of the first bespoke consultation.

Originally Posted by Douglas

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Frankly, I think the biggest problem in this respect is StyleForum itself. Garments are so damned nitpicked to hell. For me, a guy who's just going into bespoke for the first time, I'm scared witless.

Do you fear being stripped of your Stupid Ass Member status?

Originally Posted by edmorel

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the most important thing to remember is, when the proctologist is examining you, make sure that he does not have both of his hands on your shoulders.

You should retell your close call story.


- B

Originally Posted by Douglas

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Frankly, I think the biggest problem in this respect is StyleForum itself. Garments are so damned nitpicked to hell. For me, a guy who's just going into bespoke for the first time, I'm scared witless.
This is correct. Also, some people don't deserve to have much weight given to their comments. You need to watch out for this.