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Can US Restaurants Compete?

post #1 of 113
3/17/10 at 1:58pm
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Kwilkinson said this:

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Originally Posted by kwilkinson View Post
Alinea is probably a better choice, given you have the money to afford both. CT is certainly a great experience, and would be enjoyable no matter what, but Alinea is perhaps the best restaurant in the world, and CT is not.

I disagree, or I should say not having been to Alinea that I am quite skeptical. Maybe I am too old fashioned in my tastes, or perhaps to Francophile in my dining preferences, but I have a hard time believing that US restaurants have reached the level at which they can compete with very good to great restaurants in Paris and around France. In fact, I would go so far as to say that on any given night in Paris, I could find at least five meals better than anything I could find in the US.

What do you think? Has the US food scene elevated to that of France, and, perhaps more importantly, is the US food consumer yet equipped to enjoy food which presents the level of subtlety found in other countries?
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post #2 of 113
3/17/10 at 2:08pm
One point of view shared by a friend a year or so ago. Certainly is subjective.

I know your heart is centered in French cooking, mine is not. But then I've not eaten at a Michelin starred eatery in Paris.

I've not been to France, but have been to Trotter's in Chicago, Alinea, a number of other fine places around the country. American cuisine is at it's zenith of late and getting better. A dear friend who owns a restaurant in the US, and is from Europe, thinks it's much better here, largely due to the continual reinventing in American restaurants and what he sees as an explosion of quality ingredients and real care in their selection.

FWIW
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post #3 of 113
3/17/10 at 2:12pm
In general, no, in one or two incredible instances, yes.
Then again, I say that having been to very few incredible worldwide restaurants. But just going by the popular "lists" and things like that.
I know that you say your tastes are too old-fashioned, and you aren't into foams and froths and stuff, but there was that amuse bouche in London you raved about, and there have been other instances (hell you even wanted to know how to make capsulated gels), that make me think you would like Alinea a lot. Not every course is perfect, obviously, but so many of them are so close to perfect, with simple flavor combinations, incredible textures, and some really eye-opening tastes. You seem to only dislike the new techniques when you feel they don't advance the dish or aren't done "right," but let me tell you, if anywhere in the world, now that el bulli is closing, does those techniques right, it is wd50, Alinea, or the fat duck.
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post #4 of 113
3/17/10 at 2:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwilkinson View Post
In general, no, in one or two incredible instances, yes. Then again, I say that having been to very few incredible worldwide restaurants. But just going by the popular "lists" and things like that. I know that you say your tastes are too old-fashioned, and you aren't into foams and froths and stuff, but there was that amuse bouche in London you raved about, and there have been other instances (hell you even wanted to know how to make capsulated gels), that make me think you would like Alinea a lot. Not every course is perfect, obviously, but so many of them are so close to perfect, with simple flavor combinations, incredible textures, and some really eye-opening tastes. You seem to only dislike the new techniques when you feel they don't advance the dish or aren't done "right," but let me tell you, if anywhere in the world, now that el bulli is closing, does those techniques right, it is wd50, Alinea, or the fat duck.
I think that my problem with the new techniques is that they feel a step too far divorced from what we grow up with as food, and as such make the dining experience a bit farther from a social encounter at which we have connections to all stages of our lives, and from what seems to be natural to put into our bodies. That isn't to say that they cannot taste great, they can, they just leave me feeling a bit more hollow emotionally than some other types of preparations. For example, Gdl mentioned this in another thread:
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Originally Posted by gdl203 View Post
I had one of my single best dishes at Senderens. A variation on the Chinese soup with dumplings - the broth was just perfect, light and fragrant, and there were plump fresh foie gras dumplings in there. Amazing combination.
Now, to me this sounds like a perfect dish because while it is a new and unusual combination, it evokes memories and comfort. That is what I prefer, I think. Senderens, at Lucas Carton, had a slightly similar dish which was a veal kidney in chorizo cream. Yes, they were slightly odd at first glance, but were extremely comfortable. I think I want to understand more than argue, but to me, what Cary Grant says about US food being even better because it is constantly being reinvented exactly misses the point. If it is reinvented so as to lose touch with our roots, then it becomes a bit hollow to me. I also think that the American obsession with bigger flavors and newer things, which exist everywhere in American culture (please no ticket to North Korea) may increase innovation, but I think they also stifle subtlety in this area. Anyway, I think you guys do a good job at your place keeping a balance of styles. My preferences, as you know, are for things like the BLT.
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post #5 of 113
3/17/10 at 2:35pm
i'm not going to get too far into that fight. but i will agree that there are almost certainly better french restaurants in france than in the us. mexican, thai, chinese, japanese ... maybe not so much.
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post #6 of 113
3/17/10 at 2:38pm
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Originally Posted by iammatt View Post
I think that my problem with the new techniques is that they feel a step too far divorced from what we grow up with as food, and as such make the dining experience a bit farther from a social encounter at which we have connections to all stages of our lives, and from what seems to be natural to put into our bodies. That isn't to say that they cannot taste great, they can, they just leave me feeling a bit more hollow emotionally than some other types of preparations.

For example, Gdl mentioned this in another thread:



Now, to me this sounds like a perfect dish because while it is a new and unusual combination, it evokes memories and comfort. That is what I prefer, I think. Senderens, at Lucas Carton, had a slightly similar dish which was a veal kidney in chorizo cream. Yes, they were slightly odd at first glance, but were extremely comfortable.

I think I want to understand more than argue, but to me, what Cary Grant says about US food being even better because it is constantly being reinvented exactly misses the point. If it is reinvented so as to lose touch with our roots, then it becomes a bit hollow to me. I also think that the American obsession with bigger flavors and newer things, which exist everywhere in American culture (please no ticked to North Korea) may increase innovation, but I think they also stifle subtlety in this area.

Anyway, I think you guys do a good job at your place keeping a balance of styles. My preferences, as you know, are for things like the BLT.
This makes sense, I suppose. And I agree with you, regarding changing and reinvention, even though to some degree I believe reinvention has a point and is even a necessity at some times. Americans have never been too great at being subtle, in any area.
But, I will have to finish this discussion with you at another time, as I have an appointment I must be getting off to.
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post #7 of 113
3/17/10 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by iammatt View Post
Kwilkinson said this:



I disagree, or I should say not having been to Alinea that I am quite skeptical. Maybe I am too old fashioned in my tastes, or perhaps to Francophile in my dining preferences, but I have a hard time believing that US restaurants have reached the level at which they can compete with very good to great restaurants in Paris and around France. In fact, I would go so far as to say that on any given night in Paris, I could find at least five meals better than anything I could find in the US.

What do you think? Has the US food scene elevated to that of France, and, perhaps more importantly, is the US food consumer yet equipped to enjoy food which presents the level of subtlety found in other countries?

I sorta disagree. There is plenty of world-class food in NY. In Chicago - maybe a couple of the more expensive restaurants. Here on the West Coast, some of the food is excellent, but I don't disagree with David Chang's assessment of California food. There is definitely no subtlety or delicacy in the flavors here.

I've been to plenty of terrible restaurants in France, and several were 3 star Michelins. Same is true in Italy. Tokyo, above a certain price point, is probably the best for food in the world.
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post #8 of 113
3/17/10 at 2:43pm
Thread Starter 
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Originally Posted by foodguy View Post
i'm not going to get too far into that fight. but i will agree that there are almost certainly better french restaurants in france than in the us. mexican, thai, chinese, japanese ... maybe not so much.
Clearly Mexican. I've had good Chinese and great Vietnamese in Paris, but that isn't surprising. Anyway, that point is taken, and good thing since 3/4 of my dining out in SF is either Mexican or Chinese. Also, Italian food in France is consistently awful, in my experience, with Italy reciprocating with terrifically bad French food. I was talking more about French, or International French-inspired. No fights, or anything...
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post #9 of 113
3/17/10 at 2:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by iammatt View Post
I think I want to understand more than argue, but to me, what Cary Grant says about US food being even better because it is constantly being reinvented exactly misses the point. If it is reinvented so as to lose touch with our roots, then it becomes a bit hollow to me. I also think that the American obsession with bigger flavors and newer things, which exist everywhere in American culture (please no ticked to North Korea) may increase innovation, but I think they also stifle subtlety in this area.

ok, so i will get dragged in. many years ago victor hazan, husband and co-writer with marcella and a very smart guy, described the difference between american and italian chefs as: "american chefs cook to surprise, italian chefs cook to reassure." then he pointed out that the problem with cooking to surprise is that you can only use the same trick once ... the next time you have to reinvent yourself and how many times can you do that and make it wonderful? further, he pointed out, that it's rare in the united states to have a favorite dish from a great restaurant, one that you go back to particularly to order that, whereas in italy, that's more the norm.
i had that experience a couple of years ago at my favorite restaurant where the chef had hired a new chef de cuisine and as a special treat sent out all new dishes. they were fine, perfectly executed, but i kept looking at the guy at the next table eating his oysters and pearls and cauliflower pannacotta and lusting after those.
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post #10 of 113
3/17/10 at 2:50pm
Sorry kyle but wd-50 sucks major balls. Maybe some fun, yellow-chocolate-on-top-of-cardamom-soil balls that look like a little quail egg in a nest that you crack with a fun little hammer to eat all the bacom foam inside. But still sucks balls.
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post #11 of 113
3/17/10 at 2:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by foodguy View Post
ok, so i will get dragged in. many years ago victor hazan, husband and co-writer with marcella and a very smart guy, described the difference between american and italian chefs as: "american chefs cook to surprise, italian chefs cook to reassure." then he pointed out that the problem with cooking to surprise is that you can only use the same trick once ... the next time you have to reinvent yourself and how many times can you do that and make it wonderful? further, he pointed out, that it's rare in the united states to have a favorite dish from a great restaurant, one that you go back to particularly to order that, whereas in italy, that's more the norm.
i had that experience a couple of years ago at my favorite restaurant where the chef had hired a new chef de cuisine and as a special treat sent out all new dishes. they were fine, perfectly executed, but i kept looking at the guy at the next table eating his oysters and pearls and cauliflower pannacotta and lusting after those.

that is an excellent quote - when I first moved to the US I used to always bitch about italian resteraunts here, mostly because it seemed to me that they couldn't take a perfectly good classic recipe and serve it - they would mix pesto with bolonese or something like that.

I like reassuring food, myself.
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post #12 of 113
3/17/10 at 2:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdl203 View Post
Sorry kyle but wd-50 sucks major balls. Maybe some fun, yellow-chocolate-on-top-of-cardamom-soil balls that look like a little quail egg in a nest that you crack with a fun little hammer to eat all the bacom foam inside. But still sucks balls.

That's actually okay with me, because I don't like it. I have never been interested in it enough to study what they do like I do with Alinea or TFD. I just assumed it was up there from the way a lot of people in the restaurant world rave about it. I also hate moto in Chicago. I guess given that I don't like the place, it was rather stupid of me to list it.
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post #13 of 113
3/17/10 at 3:05pm
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Originally Posted by kwilkinson View Post
I also hate moto in Chicago.

Woops.
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post #14 of 113
3/17/10 at 3:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdl203 View Post
Sorry kyle but wd-50 sucks major balls. Maybe some fun, yellow-chocolate-on-top-of-cardamom-soil balls that look like a little quail egg in a nest that you crack with a fun little hammer to eat all the bacom foam inside. But still sucks balls.

agree
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post #15 of 113
3/17/10 at 3:18pm
I think Matt is hinting at something here I'd like to put forward. Are US consumers looking for paegentry as much or more than the food itself? Does the US consumer generally not feel they've had a great meal unless there is a certain level of pomp and circumstance? Are French/Euor consumers more focused on the food?

Since a business owner needs to meet consumer expectations and give satisfaction, does this dilute the US food culture?

I think there's something to this but an unsure.
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